Opinions on Tamd 61a / Gearboxes (ZF220)

sharpness

sharpness

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Having viewed a few Fairline 36 (Turbos & Sedan) powered by Volvo Tamd 61a, i have come across some which have had gearbox replacements at approx 1000 hrs use in each case, with service history evident. The gearboxes were the ZF 220 hydraulic type which i thought had a good reputation, so was surprised to see replacements, did the gearboxes from 1986 to 1991 have any known issues?

With regards the engines (Tamd 61a), previous searches seem to show them in a positive light, though checks to include; Exhaust elbows / Engine mounts / Installation on fairline makes starboard access more tricky though i understand access mods can be done.

Any opinions or advice on these Engines and gearbox combinations is appreciated.
 
Hi Jon,

I have a P385 with 2x TAMD61A and ZF / IRM 220A boxes.

I replaced the port box at 2500 hrs due noisy bearings. I should point out that the box was perfectly serviceable but I just didn't like the whine. Lots of companies offered to rebuild it for me with prices ranging from approx £1k upwards, however, having discovered that brand new boxes were still in production (this was 2009..) and were only £2150 I opted for a new one instead. I think that is a reasonable price for a big bit of complicated metal, and was pleasantly surprised at that. Note that I fitted it myself so you would need to factor in labour if paying someone to fit it for you.

My original engine mounts started to fail in 2009 (22 yrs old..) so I replaced them. The original mounts were underspecced for the job, and suffered from corrosion induced stress fracturing just under the lower height adjustment nut. On Princesses there was (apparently) a recall to have uprated mounts installed and mine had not been done. It would be worth checking which sort of mounts are installed on the Turbo. The uprated ones have an additional large diameter sleeve under the larger lower adjustment nut, the original bad ones have a constant diameter threaded post from the bottom of the mount running through the adjustment nuts all the way to the top in one piece - avoid.

This is not a cheap job if you need to do it - mounts are £250 EACH (so x8) plus engine lifting to fit. Which involves removing the shafts. And bits of floor for clearance. And the lower nuts under the mounting plates are IMPOSSIBLE to get to. Trust me, I've done it.

The engines themselves are generally bombproof as long as they have been regularly serviced. Things to look out for are tappet adjustments every two years (if the exhaust tappets are allowed to get too tight you can burn and lose an exhaust valve. Bad.).

Good points (in fact, great points in my mind..) are an all gear driven valve train and ancillary system, only the alternator uses belt drive. You can't have a broken cambelt, cos there isn't one, and if the alternator belt snaps all you lose is the alternator. The engine will keep happily running until you make port for repairs. They also make extensive use of cooling system metal pipework, so no rubber to perish except one rubber hose on the exhaust elbow. Each engine has two cyl heads, so a leaky head gasket involves far less work to remove the affected head. Each head is thus small and easy to handle versus one huge long 6 cyl head.

All in all, I really love my engines.. :)

One engine installation thing to look at are the flexible exhaust hoses that run aft under the aft cabin. Whilst doing the engine mounts I had a look (I had to remove the hoses for access) and found that they had started to perish and delaminate on the INSIDE - you can't see this from the outside, so I would recommend either shoving a fibre optic or a Maplin style small camera up from the exhaust outlet to check the condition of the hoses. It is unlikely you will be able to easily remove the hose from the elbow without wrecking it, and I was going to replace them anyway.. In the P385 the exhausts exit under water, so a low level failure of a hose is a potential sinking boat issue.

Hope that is of some use - let me know if you need any more info, and talk to VolvoPaul for the definitive review of this engine / gearbox combo.

Rgds,
Ross
 
sharpness said:
Having viewed a few Fairline 36 (Turbos & Sedan) powered by Volvo Tamd 61a, i have come across some which have had gearbox replacements at approx 1000 hrs use in each case, with service history evident. The gearboxes were the ZF 220 hydraulic type which i thought had a good reputation, so was surprised to see replacements, did the gearboxes from 1986 to 1991 have any known issues?

With regards the engines (Tamd 61a), previous searches seem to show them in a positive light, though checks to include; Exhaust elbows / Engine mounts / Installation on fairline makes starboard access more tricky though i understand access mods can be done.

Any opinions or advice on these Engines and gearbox combinations is appreciated.
Click to expand...

Early engineer suffered inherent valve problems wrecking some engines, the reason the gearboxes have been replaced is the price of Italian parts such as the clutch plate kit and gaskets along with labour makes rebuilding a box a waste of time on the basis for a few hundred more you can have a new box, any diligent engineer would point this out to a client. I'm afraid in my experience the averages of boxes I've fitted seem to be higher on the turbo 36, mainly down to oil cooler blockage and leaks, loss of oil down to owners not checkin level, net result slipping clutches burning out the drive pack. I would have pointed this out and other issues had you used me to accompany you on the sea trial. The list does not end there with the turbo.
 
rosssavage said:
Paul, any other info on the inherent valve issues? Not something I'm familiar with, and now I'm worried about mine!

Cheers,
Ross
Click to expand...

Thought you'd have known about the 61 as an engineer? Common problem when they first came out for about 2 years, then I'd say vp changed suppliers though no one will know.

As you have the early generation of 61 I'd say two things.

1 you use your boat I presume on the Thames so it will never get really hot or work hard, so the valves won't fail.

2 Volvo said, if they don't fail in the first 100 or so hours they won't fail.

I've just stripped and rebuilt 2 61s and found real evidence of valve failure in both engines, the fact some pistons had damage to the crowns gave it away, also one motors valves were that badly mushroomed they had just about ran out of tappet adjustment as the valves had made there way north towards the valve gear.

I'd say you should be ok, though I don't know about any high speed stuff, only time will tell.

I'd also make comment that your boat may have the old type elastomuff silencers if so they do break up and can cause partial blockage, which in turn ups the egt, you have been warned!
 
Professional engineering past is in commercial aircraft, so although (I'd like to think...) I have half decent skills, I have nothing like as much in depth knowledge about specific issues with marine powerplant types as you...

I can do servicing, repairs and installations, but I would hesitate to do major engine work / rebuilds that are your bread and butter.

Thanks for the info - 90% upper Thames use with an annual jaunt down to the coast, so I'll live with the risk. They're on 2800 hours now, so I've passed the 100 hour failure test :)

Have to check my elastomuff silencers now.
 
rosssavage said:
Professional engineering past is in commercial aircraft, so although (I'd like to think...) I have half decent skills, I have nothing like as much in depth knowledge about specific issues with marine powerplant types as you...

I can do servicing, repairs and installations, but I would hesitate to do major engine work / rebuilds that are your bread and butter.

Thanks for the info - 90% upper Thames use with an annual jaunt down to the coast, so I'll live with the risk. They're on 2800 hours now, so I've passed the 100 hour failure test :)

Have to check my elastomuff silencers now.
Click to expand...

Wow 2800 hours, your halfway to a full rebuild then, the last motors had done nearly 6300 hours but to be fair had a hard life from the ex met and Dorset police boat they came from.
 
Thanks for the above informative replies, all very helpful. Encouraging to hear that the gearboxes should potentially only suffer failure due to lack of maintenance of oil level or cooler issues, and there isn't an inherent design issue.
Knowing that the cost for a replacement wouldn't mean selling a kidney is positive to hear, when you compare that for a simple exhaust elbow, cost is £1,100+ .
Good info on checks to make for the engine mounts, sounds like changing them is a costly and tricky task.

Volvopaul - Will send you another PM ref contact details.
 
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