Open Letter

[doug748]

On Tuesday I was crossing the eastern edge of Plymouth sound on route to the River Plym. This is a well trod passage used by small boats in and out of the eastern end of the breakwater and ou to sea. For those that dont know Plymouth it is a wide, protected and obsticle free patch of water, and deep.
I was motoring and preparing to come alongside. At 400 yards of so I became aware of a larger yacht on my starboard side, lettered on the hull; Plymouth School, or some such. It was coming out of the extreme end of the nearby anchorage and shaping to cross my path. I took no particular notice suspecting it would round up and come inside me on route for the mouth of the River Plym, which was about 1/3 mile distant. I was busy, he stood on, and on. I thought he might be coming alongside for a word. He was not, at the point at which a collision was almost inevitable I was forced to do a 90 then 360 turn to avoid a collision. He was making perhaps 51/2 kts me 4kts. He was coming at an oblique angle and at the time I made a correction he was in no position to avioid a collision himself.
I am aware that the rules put us both in error. My question is (feedback from instructors would be particularly helpful). Is this the way to conduct a training boat? Do we stand on regardless?
Myself, I spend my sailing life nudging my couse to avoid close situations; regaress of my standing in the rules. I assume this boat had been and was going nowhere in particular, and you can be pretty sure he would not try the same stunt with the local fishing community.
This was a flat calm day with perfect sunshine, why did he aim at me?
I was singlehanded, flying the Q flag at the end of a cross channel passage. Counts for nothing in the rules, I know, but it is ironic that at see we make a point of tring to convince large ships that we are not intending to enforce our "right of way"
What do you think? Do I need to join one of this blokes courses?
I will find this company and invite comment!

 

[snowleopard]

You don't make it clear in your post the angle he was approaching from. Was it more than 22.5° abaft your beam?

That angle is difficult to judge accurately so both boats can assume the other is the give way vessel. I believe that was the cause of the sinking of the Tricolor.

In any case if he thought he was the stand-on vessel he should have given you 5 hoots or vice versa. For a sailing school boat to get into a close-quarters situation like that is unacceptable.

Did you hoot?

 

[Deleted member 478]

Chris,

Doug emplies that the other boat was the overtaking vessel so angle of dangle doesn't count for much.

 

[snowleopard]

[ QUOTE ]
became aware of a larger yacht on my starboard side.....It was coming out of the extreme end of the nearby anchorage and shaping to cross my path

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't think that defined the closing angle, hence the question on whether it was approaching in the overtaking sector or the give way sector.

 

[JerryHawkins]

I suspect it was one of this bunch:

http://www.plymsail.demon.co.uk/default.htm

They are now based in Plymouth Yacht Haven marina. Haven't had any close calls with them myself yet, but I always make a point of keeping as far away from any "training" vessel as possible!

Cheers,

Jerry

 

[duncan]

[ QUOTE ]
I am aware that the rules put us both in error

[/ QUOTE ]

not quite sure how you concluded this?

if (and I am not in a position to comment on this from the information given) he was the stand on vessel he has the obligation to hold his speed and course untill action by the other vessel alone is not considered to be sufficient to avoid a collission (accepting that he can of course take the initiative if he considers it safe regardless of your action and change course early and clearly). As you could, as you proved, take that action his judgement would appear to have been accurate..........

Not sure why if you considered him stand on, and a risk of collission existed, you didn't just slow down early on and the situation goes away?

However, all the above said, I have some sympathy for the more general prediciment when approaching a mooring after a long trip - but whislt you were in your mind finishing your trip and mooring up he was probably in the middle of his (mentally).

 

[jimi]

regardless of CR etc that is the sort of attitude I find reprehensible partic on a training boat. IMHO an instructor should be educating on civility and awareness as well as the letter of the law. Would'nt it have been nice if he'd said to his trainees, look lads we're technically the stand on vessel but its obvious this guy's preparing to moor up at the end of a long voyage, lets just dip behind him. Result nice day for all and consideration and awareness of other water users taught.

 

[Vagabond]

Interesting.

I was buzzed by the UKSA's Phantom 37 earlier in the year. I hailed them on 72 and 16 to see why they came so close but had no reply.

Maybe this is why we have problems with giving each other space. The training schools are teaching that way!

 

[Judders]

It's impossible to comment acurately on so little information. Just how close to the shore were you?

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

That's exactly what my instructor said when I did my YM. But that was 25 years ago. Seems things might have changed since then, but not on my boat they haven't! Common sense isn't it?

 

[Cobra]

Well said Jimi...a great shame that more people don't think this way!

 

[savageseadog]

You were motoring but was he sailing ?

 

[thomas1]

I think it unfair to not name the sailing school in question and if your eye sight is bad should you be sailing (funny that coming from a total novice) but as I am in conversations with sailing schools down that way, ref i would like to learn properly come on give me the name then I can look some where else
many thanks Tom

 

[plymsail]

From Richard. Plymouth Sailing School.

I am a straight forward, hard working person trying very hard to set a good standard of training and to help people to enjoy using the water.
I don't enjoy reading some of this rather bitter stuff, it seems to be a bit of a slagging match.
If our boat was involved and was behaving in an unfriendly or inappropriate manner then I am very sorry. In common with most of the forum users, I don't know enough about this particular situation to comment.
I have been involved with the sea for many years, I have been abused by experts, rammed by fools, embarassed by my own mistakes and stunned by the over riding fact that I meet such an enormous number of good, interesting people............ that is what makes it all worth while!
I shan't bore you with a hundred tales of ignorant behaviour, or dangerous practices (and that would be just this week!). I shall simply try to keep on encouraging people to do the right thing and stay safe.
If Doug would like to talk to me about this incident then I would be delighted, face to face, preferably over a beer.
rb

 

[ytd]

I also give sailing school boats a wider berth these days after one accidently tacked into us - no damage done. The instructor was demosrtating how a smaller lighter boat could sail through the lee of a larger heaver boat. Demonstration pass OK but then he gives the tiller to a student on the next pass who confuses which way to push the tiller and crash tacks into us.

Let's hope the instructors don't come to interpret this wider berth as an informal right of way akin to the racing one.

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]

I didn't think that defined the closing angle, hence the question on whether it was approaching in the overtaking sector or the give way sector.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Jimi. These considerations are for the bar-room inquest. It's only good manners to make space for someone preparing to moor. It's one part of the sailing experience where you don't have as much room to change your mind or take avoiding actions, and inevitably you're concentrating on something in hand rather than possible intrusions.
Besides which, why is important to sail through a mooring area? It's like going out for a drive and motorng around car parks, complaining about people maonuvering in and out of parking spaces. Bizzare.

I don't know any other activity where "The Rules" take such precidence over good manners and common sense.

I'll now get a load of fuming replies from the Usual Suspects.

 

[doug748]

Thanks for your response everyone, particularly Richard.
Apologies for my lack of detail. Yes the other boat was motoring as well; I did not consider the boat to be overtaking me, but neither was it coming in at 90 deg.
If a collision had happened we would have both been at fault, him for standing on iinto a collision situation me (mainly) for failing to give way.
My question was more of a general one of manners. Do we stand on our rights in an empty ocean? More importantly what do we teach to beginners?
I think your response has covered it nicely. Brian.

 

[plymsail]

With regard to a stand on vessel giving way out of a desire to be civilised..... I agree and would normally encourage people to avoid forcing a give way vessel to act. But we must always try to remember the rules. The valuable key words are "early substantial" actions to be taken. I think this allows us at a very early stage to alter course, even if we are technically stand on, as long as we make our actions very clear and there is no possibility of a near simultaneous alteration by the give way vessel. If we do this in sufficient time to prevent a close quarters situation from even beginning to develop then we are on a winner!
Once a close quarters situation has developed it might be said that the opportunity to be thoughtful and civilised has been missed and we should stick to the rules..

 

[jimi]

"Once a close quarters situation has developed it might be said that the opportunity to be thoughtful and civilised has been missed and we should stick to the rules.. "

Suggest you read your CR again. There is a duty for the stand on boat to take action in that situation not to stand on regardless .. even if means a slow down and stop.