One vs two masts

[prv]

Could be used for a spot-the-lifejacket competition.

And is anybody dying?

Pete

 

[Greenheart]

Is that a mizzen, or a flag?

I'm delighted to see ketches being discussed again. It's easily a pretty enough rig to justify its aerodynamic imperfections, relative to the sloop...but saying that, I'm already kicking myself for overlooking the ketch's versatility, outshone by the glare of its visual appeal.

Perhaps I may ask a question that will bore many who've heard similar from me before; I apologise, and I hope it's relevant.

I like the little Fisher 25, which was rigged as ketch or sloop. Now, plainly neither was intended as a racer. But I get the feeling (looking at both rigs on the same hull, on paper before me) that the mizzen on the ketch has been added only because it's cute...

...the shorter mainmast on the ketch seems a laughably undersized, safe choice. The mizzen is a real pocket hanky, presumably sized with another F25 in mind - on the Fisher 'Potter', the mizzen was strictly a steadying sail, (and kinda cute, for flags, lights, aerials etc...)

So, my idea would be, to use the ketch mainmast & sail (possibly re-cut, eg with a shorter boom) as the boat's mizzen, while using an F25 sloop's taller mainmast, mainsail and genoa, as the designer intended.

Obviously the mainmast would need re-stepping well ahead of the standard ketch's - possibly even going through the forehatch - and she'd need to sprout a bit of a bowsprit to carry the genoa (and the centre of effort) forward. Fortunately Fisher 25 masts are deck-stepped (I think!), and the long keel wouldn't be as wildly over-sensitive to rig alterations as a fin. And yes, I'd anticipate a fair amount of testing being required before steering balance was achieved.

The mention of such hefty beasts as Fishers, may make sportier ketch-fans groan at the stereotype...but I'd like to know if anyone can see why the F25 shouldn't get a much bigger mizzen. As far as I know, shroud bases on Fishers are strongly-built, like the rest of the boat.

I'd like to see an F25's great weight and bulk plunging along in a force 3, rather than always relying on the Volvo. If upwind finesse suffers...well, no-one buys a five-tonne wheelhouse-25-footer, expecting sprightly tacking. No need to lag unnecessarily, though!

I don't actually own one. Just another happy dream...

 

[Dockhead]

Well, a Fisher is not actually a sailing-boat, IMHO. That's a motor cruiser with a bit of auxilary sail. A nice, salty, seaworthy boat, but not made for sailing performance, so the type of rig is irrelevant. Rather, such a boat is probably exactly the thing for a ketch rig with small sail area, because this will produce little heeling moment and thus make no special demands on the motoring-oriented keel.

Some ketches may have very small mizzens to avoid unbalancing the sail plan -- may have started out in prototype with more sail area at the mizzen, then got reduced because of intractable problems with weather helm.

Ketches are pretty, and why shouldn't that be a consideration in choice of rig? We all do this for pleasure, after all.

 

[Goldie]

Our mission this summer is to set a mizzen staysail, just for fun, not so we get somewhere quicker.

But you will! We fly our mizzen staysail with the wind anywhere between 60 and 150 degrees off the bow and it makes a noticeable difference.

To all those who've said they like the attractiveness of the ketch rig - I agree totally. See pic at the top!

 

[Greenheart]

Ketches are pretty, and why shouldn't that be a consideration in choice of rig? We all do this for pleasure, after all.

I echo that. There are innumerable highly efficient hatchbacks on our roads, but they never touch anyone's emotions like an E-type or an old Rolls. Owning a beautiful boat is rewarding even if you only watch it from the quayside.

I visited Hamble on just about the only sunny Sunday in March. In the haze and yellow glow to the south, a ketch was beating steadily seaward, under full sail. We could hardly see the yacht below the sails, but the rig's beauty stirred rare approval from SWMBO.

No point in sloop-fans protesting that one mast is lovely too; it may well be, but to both the experienced and the novice's eye, something about the proportions of two-mast rigs is inherently, undeniably appealing. Like teak decks.

It's unfortunate for the ketch rig, that the schooner rig is so much more picturesque. As the sloop is bland beside the ketch, so the ketch is, beside the schooner. It's exasperating, that beauty and efficiency are so often mutually exclusive!

And it's sad for us, that drawing-board pursuit of efficiency makes the use of ketch rig unusual and the schooner a notable rarity.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Well, a Fisher is not actually a sailing-boat, IMHO. That's a motor cruiser with a bit of auxilary sail.

That's harsh on our cousins the Fishers. There are short rigged motor sailors for sure, and even some of the Colvic Watsons are a bit under canvassed. But most properly designed motor sailers are good sailing boats, not close winded and not fast in a F2, but superb family sailing boats. It's not our fault that we're good at sailing and motoring, but it's assumed that we could only be good at one of them

 

[E39mad]

I wouldn't call a bowspritted Fisher 37 under rigged by any means. I have sailed many "modern" Fishers and the 37 can easily achieve 7 knots under sail alone with apparent wind of 15 knots or more. Earlier shorter mast none bow sprited versions I imagine could be deemed underrigged. SLoop rigged 34 was my favourite.

 

[Rum_Pirate]

Ever since watching Sir Francis and Gypsy Moth IV returning to Plymouth in
‘67 I’d fancied a ketch. No other reason really than I like the look of them, bit more like an old sailing boat.

I've bought one, eventually, which is perfect for what I want to do, easy cruising for the amateur.

Got to thinking though, what are the advantages of a Bermudian rig over a ketch, or vice versa from the serious sailors point of view? I suppose there must be quite a few points considering there respective ratios in numbers I've seen.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I have had many a privilage to have sailed on KATE when rigged as Gaff rigged with a staysail and a jib.

I have had the privilage to have also sailed KATE whe rigged as a yawl (Yes, I know it's different from a ketch).

The difference that we have found:

1. Much easier to hoist sail - esp the main.

2. Greater speed. Possibly due to the need to reef later?

3. Easier to control. IE get in the groove.

4. Great permutations of setting sail.

5. Safer to handle - smaller main gaff aloft.

I was rather concerned when philip sail he was going to do it.

But I consider that he did a great job and KATE looks lovely now.

Initial sketch

 

[explores]

To misquote Animal Farm....

" One mast good..... Two masts better! "

you are right.

 

[KellysEye]

We bought a ketch so Jane could easily handle the split sail plan. As said they are reaching machines but not too bad upwind if you follow Searush's advice about the mizzen. Downwind we use a reefed mizzen and poled out twin twistle rig headsails.

I also agree with Searush about how sad it would be if there weren't 'old fashioned' designs around, most are very pretty. I never seen a pretty AWB they all look much the same unfortunately.

 

[Seadog17]

We bought a ketch so Jane could easily handle the split sail plan. As said they are reaching machines but not too bad upwind if you follow Searush's advice about the mizzen. Downwind we use a reefed mizzen and poled out twin twistle rig headsails.

I also agree with Searush about how sad it would be if there weren't 'old fashioned' designs around, most are very pretty. I never seen a pretty AWB they all look much the same unfortunately.

One of the problems I’ve found, with being a fairly new forumite, are the terms like AWB that are used and I have no idea what the hell they mean and am too embarrassed to ask. Perhaps a “sticky” could be started with a reference list of them for the newbie?

I get the feeling though, that saying all AWB’s look the same, might not endear you a lot of people.

Meanwhile, thanks for all the tips, there were some good ones there, setting the sails, alternative uses for the mizzen, etc. My only problem is that, at the moment, I can’t see most of the pictures until I get home next week and get full web access, (unlike the rest of the North Sea fleets our company doesn't believe in crew welfare).

Totally agree with Searush as well, it would be a lot worse a world without the old classics. Spent a lot of time and money on one but have run out of time and now it has to go if ever I'm going to enjoy my new boat. Chainsaw beckoning, although I'll try one more time to give it away before I start.

 

[johna]

One vs Two masts

Dear Kipper, have you tried adjusting the main & mizzen sheets much? The mizzen, being so far aft, does have a significant impact on balance & I find that while it is best sheeted harder than the main when on the wind, slacking the mizzen sheet slightly will remove any tendency to weather helm when off the wind.

As a cruiser rather than a racer, balancing the rig to achieve easy sailing on a given course is preferable to trying to maximise speed (which may cock up my arrival time for the many tide gates in my sailing area).

Mind you, the Pentland mizzen is tiny at about 70sq ft, maybe yours is much bigger.

Searush

Is your mizzen boom sheeted from the centre of the stern or on a triangular rig? I often try to set the mizzen slightly to windward to improve on the wind performance. Sometimes it seems to work and other times not so good.

 

[Searush]

Searush

Is your mizzen boom sheeted from the centre of the stern or on a triangular rig? I often try to set the mizzen slightly to windward to improve on the wind performance. Sometimes it seems to work and other times not so good.

Double block on the boom & a block on each side of the aft cabin gives me a self-centreing 4:1 purchase. I don't see how sheeting to windward would help with the mizzen as it has virtually no twist so it would just be producing drag.

The main is sometimes "oversheeted" to reduce twist, this means that the bottom of teh sail is providing "negative drive" or drag, but the increased efficiency of the upper part of the sail gains more than enough power to overcome this drag.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

We bought a ketch so Jane could easily handle the split sail plan. As said they are reaching machines but not too bad upwind if you follow Searush's advice about the mizzen. Downwind we use a reefed mizzen and poled out twin twistle rig headsails.

I also agree with Searush about how sad it would be if there weren't 'old fashioned' designs around, most are very pretty. I never seen a pretty AWB they all look much the same unfortunately.

That's pretty much why we bought a ketch too... Our main is considerably smaller than on our previous boat, even though the boat is 5' longer.

That 'n she looks luverly!

 

[Greenheart]

I have no idea what the hell terms like AWB mean and am too embarrassed to ask...

...(but) I get the feeling that saying all AWB’s look the same, might not endear you (to) a lot of people.

Seadog, I hope you've discovered since posting earlier, that AWB means Average White Boat? Actually that's far less cryptic than 'MAB', used for the opposite (or just the four-decade older) variety: the Mouldy Auld Boat...

...as to derogatory comments about AWBs, their owners are ever-ready to defend their choices. In fact they're often pre-emptively vociferous, presumably because they recognise the soulless banality of their safe, white, sensibly efficient, caravan-charisma sloops...

...sorry, getting carried away there.

I wonder if, to sailing kids, the mizzens of yawls and ketches are equivalent to the spare wheel on the boot-lids of old cars...

...because even though there was every good reason for the old layouts of cars and cruising yachts, designers' competitive pursuit of efficiency overrode style by degrees, knocking off most of the interesting corners rather than maintaining individuality.

So now, the market presents us with roomy, compact, frugal, lamentably similar, forgettable cars and likewise, dozens of bulbous lightweight white two-sail single-masters. On the road, money spent for fun, generally goes on coupes, convertibles and classics...

...yet, if we sail for pleasure, it seems sad that so many boat-buyers plump for the floating equivalent of Vauxhall Vectras...

...no wonder AWB owners are often so noisily insecure......sorry! Sorry. Mustn't say that. Not politically-correct.

 

[Seadog17]

Seadog, I hope you've discovered since posting earlier, that AWB means Average White Boat? Actually that's far less cryptic than 'MAB', used for the opposite (or just the four-decade older) variety: the Mouldy Auld Boat...

...as to derogatory comments about AWBs, their owners are ever-ready to defend their choices. In fact they're often pre-emptively vociferous, presumably because they recognise the soulless banality of their safe, white, sensibly efficient, caravan-charisma sloops...

...sorry, getting carried away there.

I wonder if, to sailing kids, the mizzens of yawls and ketches are equivalent to the spare wheel on the boot-lids of old cars...

...because even though there was every good reason for the old layouts of cars and cruising yachts, designers' competitive pursuit of efficiency overrode style by degrees, knocking off most of the interesting corners rather than maintaining individuality.

So now, the market presents us with roomy, compact, frugal, lamentably similar, forgettable cars and likewise, dozens of bulbous lightweight white two-sail single-masters. On the road, money spent for fun, generally goes on coupes, convertibles and classics...

...yet, if we sail for pleasure, it seems sad that so many boat-buyers plump for the floating equivalent of Vauxhall Vectras...

...no wonder AWB owners are often so noisily insecure......sorry! Sorry. Mustn't say that. Not politically-correct.

Dancrane.

Thank you very much for the explanation of the abbreviations. Much appreciated and hopefully, will help me ease my way into the general chit-chat of the more experienced posters/sailors.

I have also noted your thoughts on non-ketches. And I think I’d better say no more on that.

Thanks again.