One vs two masts

SHUG said:
Ok...here's the controversial lowdown.
The ketch was popular until the technology moved on to allow sloops to have the same sail area.
When beating the mizzen sail works in the turbulence of the main and if oversheeted causes weather helm.
On a run the mizzen sail spoils the airflow over the main and is another gybing sail to look out for.
As with all yachts, on a broad reach, as Twister Ken's picture shows, all sailcloth including the bedsheets can be deployed.
Twice as much rigging and cordage,four times as much trouble and 3/4 of the cockpit space..
The ketch is good at anchor but you can fly a riding sail from the backstay if you like to stay head to wind.
Having had several sloops and one ketch ,I would never buy another ketch.
I am sure that you will all agree with me....not!
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+1. Obsolete technology and excess hassle for anything below 70 foot,
 
I don't have a problem with it - it's just that I have 2 sails to furl up rather than one. It isn't twice as much work, but it is 1.5 times as much, cos the mizzen is small.

Because I am often solo, it means heading into the wind, doing the main & then regaining control of the boat & heading into the wind for the mizzen. The auto pilot isn't a great help as I am often working across a few knots of tide which plays havoc with autopilots at slow speeds.

I'm happy with my choice & after 25 years of sailing her I think I can cope with most things.
 
dunedin said:
+1. Obsolete technology and excess hassle for anything below 70 foot,
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Hhhmm, so new is necessarily better is it? I suppose that depends on what you seek.

No more wooden boats? No more Gaffers? No loose-footed sails? No more Clinker construction? No Junk rig? Just plastic pudding bowls eh? What an awful world that would be - not for me thank you.
 
The Mizzen:
Somewhere to mount - the radar, the spare emergency VHF Ariel, the TV Ariel, SSB Ariel, Navtex Ariel, Deck light to illuminate the cockpit. Under the mizzen boom we hang our washing and tie on the aft cabin windscoop, the solar shower hangs from it, handy for when you get out after a swim…….. and I believe it’s possible to use it for a mizzen sail.

More seriously in a bit of a blow (not to windward) full mizzen and half rolled genny with the main put away in it’s bag makes for a relaxed sail (SHMBO does not like our fully battened main in a blow).

I know a ketch is not as efficient to windward as a sloop but IMHO for flexibility and aesthetic appeal you can’t beat them.
 
Searush said:
Hhhmm, so new is necessarily better is it? I suppose that depends on what you seek.

No more wooden boats? No more Gaffers? No loose-footed sails? No more Clinker construction? No Junk rig? Just plastic pudding bowls eh? What an awful world that would be - not for me thank you.
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Couldn't agree more. :)
 
Abraxas33 said:
The Mizzen:
Somewhere to mount - the radar, the spare emergency VHF Ariel, the TV Ariel, SSB Ariel, Navtex Ariel, Deck light to illuminate the cockpit. Under the mizzen boom we hang our washing and tie on the aft cabin windscoop, the solar shower hangs from it, handy for when you get out after a swim…….. and I believe it’s possible to use it for a mizzen sail.

More seriously in a bit of a blow (not to windward) full mizzen and half rolled genny with the main put away in it’s bag makes for a relaxed sail (SHMBO does not like our fully battened main in a blow).

I know a ketch is not as efficient to windward as a sloop but IMHO for flexibility and aesthetic appeal you can’t beat them.
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An excellent argument in favour, that extra mast is worth it's weight in gold.:D
 
Most of the time we sail just mizzen and genoa, it's a nicely balanced sail plan, but most of the time we are sailing just for the heck of it - Passages get the 'all plain sail' treatment. We do struggle with the mizzen on a broad reach and run where it seems to want to push the stern round and adds at least five degrees of weather helm, so we just stow it. We have four young children so we like the fact that they pretty much have a sail each; a ketch rig looks good and you can use it for one of the hammocks at anchor. Heaven forbid that the interesting rigs die out and we are left with AWB's everywhere. Our mission this summer is to set a mizzen staysail, just for fun, not so we get somewhere quicker.
 
LadyInBed said:
I have a line with bungees spaced along it that stretches from mast to boom end which I hook on before dropping the sail.
When the sail is dropped I make a 'hammock' in the sail along the boom and fold the rest of the sail into it then hold it to the boom with the bungees.

The sail cover clips onto the boom end and unfolded to the mast. It has a webbing 'spine' that clips round the mast and pulled tight. The hanging sides are clipped below the boom and down the front of the mast.
Same for the mizzen.

Easy Peezey, done single handed, (and sometimes with just one hand) :D
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Sounds great LIB,
I make that hammock by loosely setting the first reef.
Given the potential for lazyjacks to snag battens and other things, I can't understand how they have become so popular. Nobody had them 20 years ago.
 
Whether they are not close winded or more of a pain to sail over bermuda rigs, what they do excel in is looks, even with just the sticks up they look like a proper boat only to be admired even more when under sail.
 
Abraxas33 said:
The Mizzen:
and I believe it’s possible to use it for a mizzen sail.
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You know, I believe it is.....

One benefit that doesn't seem to have been mentioned (forgive me if it has) is the utility of the mizzen as a balancing sail. With very small adjustments, it is possible to get a decent ketch (or yawl) to sail herself with little need for a helmsperson, windvane or autopilot. A ketch can, thus, very kind to her crew. The sail can also be used to counteract bow windage when manoevring at close quarters under power. It also helps a great deal when heaving to. Mine will heave to perfectly with the greatest of ease and, if hit by a squall, I can then drop the main entirely whilst the boat remains hove without any further adjustments, stow (or reef) at a leisurely pace and carry on under a much reduced but still balanced rig.

Jib and mizzen is a lovely, easy rig for stressless sailing in a blow. I wouldn't use it for really strong winds, when I would prefer a deep reefed main and storm jib.

I enjoy the efficiency and sailing ability of a good sloop, but unhurried cruising I'll stick with my ketch.
 
The Lazy Kipper said:
(snip)
We do struggle with the mizzen on a broad reach and run where it seems to want to push the stern round and adds at least five degrees of weather helm, so we just stow it. (snip).
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Litotes said:
(snip)One benefit that doesn't seem to have been mentioned (forgive me if it has) is the utility of the mizzen as a balancing sail. With very small adjustments, it is possible to get a decent ketch (or yawl) to sail herself with little need for a helmsperson, windvane or autopilot.(snip)
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Dear Kipper, have you tried adjusting the main & mizzen sheets much? :D The mizzen, being so far aft, does have a significant impact on balance & I find that while it is best sheeted harder than the main when on the wind, slacking the mizzen sheet slightly will remove any tendency to weather helm when off the wind.

As a cruiser rather than a racer, balancing the rig to achieve easy sailing on a given course is preferable to trying to maximise speed (which may cock up my arrival time for the many tide gates in my sailing area).

Mind you, the Pentland mizzen is tiny at about 70sq ft, maybe yours is much bigger.
 
E39mad said:
There was a time when ketches ruled the racing world:

BigRed.jpg


Then again personally I prefer a properly designed cutter if looking for balance and reduced/more easily handled sail areas.
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I think you've posted that photo before, but it is only now that I have realised how talented / lucky the photographer was. The timing of that photo is awesome.
 
The comparative advantages and disadvantages in terms of sailing performance depend a lot on what kind of keel you have.

Before the advent of deep ballasted keels with efficient hydrofoils, ketches (or schooners) let you get more sail up with introducing too much heeling moment. The sail area could be spread out, lower down. The more efficient airfoil of a high aspect sloop would have been useless with such a keel. Likewise, with a full keel even today there won't be much of a disadvantage upwind with a ketch - you can't point that high anyway, as a function of the keel performance.

Now design a boat with a deep ballasted keel in a shape which makes a good hydrofoil, and suddenly that tall wing which is what a good sloop rig is makes sense. A good sloop rig will perform a lot better upwind than a ketch, if you have such a keel.

Most cruisers don't go to windward much anyway, so a ketch with a longer keel and shorter mainmast works just fine for them. Nothing better for a long downhill tradewinds passage, IMHO.

If you avoid motoring as much as possible and don't mind working to windward, then a sloop with an efficient underbody shape and deep keel will be better.
 
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