One vs two masts

[Seadog17]

Ever since watching Sir Francis and Gypsy Moth IV returning to Plymouth in
‘67 I’d fancied a ketch. No other reason really than I like the look of them, bit more like an old sailing boat.

I've bought one, eventually, which is perfect for what I want to do, easy cruising for the amateur.

Got to thinking though, what are the advantages of a Bermudian rig over a ketch, or vice versa from the serious sailors point of view? I suppose there must be quite a few points considering there respective ratios in numbers I've seen.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[prv]

Bermudian isn't the opposite of ketch, bermudian is the opposite of gaff (or lugger, gunter, etc). Presumably you have a bermudian ketch.

As a rule of thumb, the further you get from a single tall "wing" protruding from the deck, the less upwind performance you will have. Two masts are therefore less good to windward, but seem to work better on a reach.

Pete

 

[sarabande]

ketches have the ability to spread the sail effort over a longer base, make sail changer easier bcs they are smaller, and you can afford to lose one mast.

 

[Seadog17]

Bermudian isn't the opposite of ketch, bermudian is the opposite of gaff (or lugger, gunter, etc). Presumably you have a bermudian ketch.

As a rule of thumb, the further you get from a single tall "wing" protruding from the deck, the less upwind performance you will have. Two masts are therefore less good to windward, but seem to work better on a reach.

Pete

Yes, I was talking about number of masts really. Thanks.

 

[Searush]

Ketches are not quite so good on the wind as the mizzen needs to be closer to the wind than the main.

The sails on a ketch are smaller than on a sloop & so possibly easier to manage.

There is more work to putting up 3 sails, & more sails to adjust, altho, when cruising, there is relatively little tweaking done of the mizzen.

I like the "one bloody great reef" concept of using the genny & mizzen as these are both easy sails to handle & the rig is well balanced, but don't expect to point that well when using it!

By dropping the main & progressively rolling the genny you can really control your speed of approach in moorings or a dock if the engine is OOO.

Furling the main & mizzen & putting covers on tends to be a bit of a pain.

using the mizzen as a riding sail is sometimes useful.

Oh, the mizzen can be a blinking nuisance when trying to set up a cockpit cover or similar.

Finally, my mast is shorter than most but just as stout & well rigged so probably stronger than on a sloop & subject to lower forces from smaller sails.

It all depends where your priorities lie. Like, you I think they are pretty boats & sloops are simply commonplace, but I don't race, so I don't want the extra efficiencies of a sloop rig.

 

[Wansworth]

From a commercial point of view two masts add cost.For th modern day cruiser the back end of the boat is now dedicated to stuff.In many cases going to winward the mizzen does not work and creates weather helm.IMHO a cutter is a better bet,I quite like the idea of a midship mast and big staysailand a high cut jib on the stem.On the other hand there have been some distinguished ketches in history and there different from the run of thr mill,so earn their place.

 

[Searush]

From a commercial point of view two masts add cost.For th modern day cruiser the back end of the boat is now dedicated to stuff.In many cases going to winward the mizzen does not work and creates weather helm.IMHO a cutter is a better bet,I quite like the idea of a midship mast and big staysailand a high cut jib on the stem.On the other hand there have been some distinguished ketches in history and there different from the run of thr mill,so earn their place.

The trick is to not try pointing too high so that the mizzen can be sheeted flatter than the main. Then the mizzen is working as it should.

 

[prv]

Furling the main & mizzen & putting covers on tends to be a bit of a pain.

Definitely!

If it's at all windy, it's often with relief that I decide "no need for the mizzen today, I'll leave the cover on". For some reason putting sail covers back on is a job I really dislike, and having one less to do is nice.

Seadog - I have a gaff yawl, so am a fellow two-mast fan

Pete

 

[Twister_Ken]

And, of course, you can set a mizzen staysail.

During a Swan Week once there were lots of reaching legs and a 55' ketch was uncatchable.

(not this one but very similar)

 

[Wansworth]

I had a staysail schooner once(a folly) but the sail I liked best was the staysail between the masts,easy to handle and added charachter to the boat also the boom was useful in launching the proper dinghy kept amidships.Was not that fast to winward but then we never did....

 

[SHUG]

Ok...here's the controversial lowdown.
The ketch was popular until the technology moved on to allow sloops to have the same sail area.
When beating the mizzen sail works in the turbulence of the main and if oversheeted causes weather helm.
On a run the mizzen sail spoils the airflow over the main and is another gybing sail to look out for.
As with all yachts, on a broad reach, as Twister Ken's picture shows, all sailcloth including the bedsheets can be deployed.
Twice as much rigging and cordage,four times as much trouble and 3/4 of the cockpit space..
The ketch is good at anchor but you can fly a riding sail from the backstay if you like to stay head to wind.
Having had several sloops and one ketch ,I would never buy another ketch.
I am sure that you will all agree with me....not!

 

[Wansworth]

One of the reasons I bought a boat was I saw it toodling along under jib with the owner farting about,seemed a nice little boat.I quite like the idea of no doing anything particular with just the mizzen and a staysail set........In real life I have a sloop!

 

[E39mad]

There was a time when ketches ruled the racing world:

Then again personally I prefer a properly designed cutter if looking for balance and reduced/more easily handled sail areas.

 

[wklein]

There is certainly more expense in maintaining a ketch as you have more sails, ropes and canvas to replace when the time comes.

On small - medium sized boats the rigging seems to always be in the way when moving around the boat. It has largely died out since winches have become much more powerful which has taken a lot of the work out of handling large sails.

They also tend to be less efficient in light airs as the centre of effort is lower and wind speeds are higher the higher you go due to friction of wind on water.

 

[prv]

On a run the mizzen sail spoils the airflow over the main

On a dead run I put the main and mizzen on opposite sides so they don't blanket each other.

The headsails absolutely will not set behind the main, so I either roll them away (for short legs) or pole out the jib on the same side as the mizzen (the mizzen being smaller and further away doesn't blanket as much as the main does). I can only pole out one headsail though, so that leaves the staysail doing nothing. Sometimes I sheet it in tight in an attempt to damp roll and/or help keep the bow pointing downwind.

Versatility is one of those things that comes with having more than two sails.

Pete

 

[Seadog17]

Thanks for your thoughts. I can see the problems with sails blanketing each other and to tell the truth, most time I've been out since buying her I've only used the genoa and mizzen. I can still get around four knots or more in a decent breeze, which suits me fine.

The sail covers for me are not too much of a problem as I'm centre cockpit and can stand on the coachroofs for both sails to do the job. No stretching.

BTW, doesn't having lazy jacks and zipped cover make the job of furling and covering that much simpler? One of my future spending projects.

Thanks.

 

[prv]

BTW, doesn't having lazy jacks and zipped cover make the job of furling and covering that much simpler?

Yep, absolutely. They'd look rubbish on my boat though

Pete

 

[chubby]

The ketch rig adds interest and flexibility but in practic when single handed or for short day trips when the covers are on, I often leave the mizen stowed and sail as a sloop, seems well balanced, but on long cruises or when plenty of crew adds to the interest if not that much to the speed!

 

[LadyInBed]

Furling the main & mizzen & putting covers on tends to be a bit of a pain.

I have a line with bungees spaced along it that stretches from mast to boom end which I hook on before dropping the sail.
When the sail is dropped I make a 'hammock' in the sail along the boom and fold the rest of the sail into it then hold it to the boom with the bungees.

The sail cover clips onto the boom end and unfolded to the mast. It has a webbing 'spine' that clips round the mast and pulled tight. The hanging sides are clipped below the boom and down the front of the mast.
Same for the mizzen.

Easy Peezey, done single handed, (and sometimes with just one hand)

 

[prv]

I have a line with bungees spaced along it that stretches from mast to boom end which I hook on before dropping the sail.
When the sail is dropped I make a 'hammock' in the sail along the boom and fold the rest of the sail into it then hold it to the boom with the bungees.

I don't have any problem with stowing the sail; my topping lifts (gaffer ones are different) and the fact that the sail is fixed along the gaff itself make that relatively painless. Actually I quite enjoy it, the process of stuffing the sail into itself reminds me of doing a sea-stow on a topsail on Stavros . Two sail-ties hung round my neck are all that's needed to secure it.

The sail cover clips onto the boom end and unfolded to the mast. It has a webbing 'spine' that clips round the mast and pulled tight. The hanging sides are clipped below the boom and down the front of the mast.
Same for the mizzen.

Doesn't sound that much different from what I have. It still annoys me . Fastex clips instead of hooks, loops and lanyards would be nicer, but even as-is it's not really a difficult job as such. It's probably just the fact that it's one of the last jobs to do, when mentally I've already got off the boat. If I have someone sailing with me, I try to get them to do it while I look busy with more "skilled" jobs

Pete