One day insurance transfer for trial sail

[RO'D]

Before I embark on this potential wild goose chase - has anybody done this before?
I was hoping to carry out a sea trial on a boat I am considering buying, however the broker says it will not be possible to go for a sail, due to insurance implications.
However a family member has yacht insurance which he would be prepared to transfer for the duration of the sea-trial.
Hopefully this would satisfy the brokers insurers...

Thanks

 

[doris]

Walk away. Cannot believe a trial sail is not possible. Incompetent broker/d*ckhead.

 

[Tranona]

Not as simple as that. Firstly the broker does not own the boat so the decision to allow a sail lies with the owner. His insurance may well cover it as most insurance allows other people to skipper the boat with the permission of the owner. If you have not signed a contract to buy the boat you may well find a reluctance to allow you to try the boat. The purchase contract normally makes a satisfactory sea trial a condition so the sail takes place after you have shown a commitment to buy the boat. If you want to try the boat before you sign the contract then you have to convince the owner and the broker that it would turn you from an interested enquirer into a buyer. Otherwise there is no benefit to them allowing you to try the boat.

 

[prv]

Is this a sea trial after having an offer accepted and paying a deposit subject to satisfactory survey and trial? Or is it just a no-obligation jolly to see whether you like this type of boat?

Brokers are generally reluctant to offer the latter, for various reasons. Most revolve around doubt over whether someone who walks in and asks for this is really a serious buyer (a well-respected broker in a recent thread said that hardly any of his eventual buyers were interested in a "test drive" - they knew what type of boat they wanted and their choice of this particular one was more driven by the surveyor's report). The insurance point may have just been a convenient excuse.

Brokers also don't have time to spend on repeated half-day sailing trips without much likelihood of a sale. However, if the boat's in the water and ready to go, you should persuade the broker to pass on your details to the owner. He may well be willing to go for a sail and invite you along.

Pete

 

[RO'D]

Thanks folks for your replies.
Some more background would be in order I guess.
This is not a sea trial after having an offer accepted and paying a deposit subject to satisfactory survey and trial.
On the other hand it is not quite a jolly - I am taking an unpaid day off work and making a 350 mile round trip to see the boat.

One of the reasons I am interested in the boat is due to its sailing performance.
I have never sailed in one of these boats before, if I had then I would be already assured of this.
Oh and the owner is abroad apparently, otherwise he could take us out for a sail...

Back to the insurance transfer question - I'm guessing this is not something forum members have done before then.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks folks for your replies.
Some more background would be in order I guess.
This is not a sea trial after having an offer accepted and paying a deposit subject to satisfactory survey and trial.
On the other hand it is not quite a jolly - I am taking an unpaid day off work and making a 350 mile round trip to see the boat.

One of the reasons I am interested in the boat is due to its sailing performance.
I have never sailed in one of these boats before, if I had then I would be already assured of this.
Oh and the owner is abroad apparently, otherwise he could take us out for a sail...

Back to the insurance transfer question - I'm guessing this is not something forum members have done before then.

Not sure how your proposal to transfer insurance would work. Insurance is on a specific boat with a specific owner, so can't see how it could be transferred to another boat owned by another person and then skippered by a third person who has no financial interest in the boat.

You need to be clear that it is not the broker's decision whether you are allowed to try the boat, but the owner's. It is not like a dealer or a manufacturer offering a boat for sale as a business as the boat is the owner's private property. so it is entirely up to him whether he allows you to try it. You have to convince him and his representative that it is in their interests to let you. In other words is there a fair chance you will buy the boat. The fact that you have to take a day off work and travel 350 miles is not their concern.

BTW there is little you can really find out about the boat in a short sail. Perhaps you have to accept that there is an element of risk in buying a used boat. If it is a well known design there is usually enough known about its characteristics to get a good idea whether it suits your purposes or not.

 

[prv]

You have to convince him and his representative that it is in their interests to let you. In other words is there a fair chance you will buy the boat. The fact that you have to take a day off work and travel 350 miles is not their concern.

I disagree - it should be of some relevance in demonstrating that the OP is serious. In the other thread ( http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?352477-Buying-a-boat-this-can-t-be-right-can-it ) I believe Jonic said that his serious buyers tended to come midweek, while the dreamers and tyre-kickers used their free time at weekends.

Pete

 

[RO'D]

Not sure how your proposal to transfer insurance would work. Insurance is on a specific boat with a specific owner, so can't see how it could be transferred to another boat owned by another person and then skippered by a third person who has no financial interest in the boat.
I had hoped it would be similiar to car insurance in this instance...


BTW there is little you can really find out about the boat in a short sail. Perhaps you have to accept that there is an element of risk in buying a used boat. If it is a well known design there is usually enough known about its characteristics to get a good idea whether it suits your purposes or not.

Fair point

 

[maby]

It is (in my opinion) a very unsatisfactory aspect of boat purchasing and one of the reasons why we always buy new these days. A boat is one of the most expensive purchases most of us make - I was going to say second only to our houses, but our boat cost more than the house! I don't think anyone buys a car without a test drive and I doubt many people buy a light aircraft without a test flight - but we are expected to cough up many tens of thousands of pounds - if not hundreds of thousands - without having seen our prospective purchase in motion. The arguments from brokers that we don't expect to be allowed to spend the night in a house we are thinking of buying are a bit fatuous - houses don't move, so you can get a pretty good understanding of it on the strength of an hour or so looking round. I do appreciate that a short test sail will not tell you how it is going to handle in a wide range of conditions, but it will certainly give you the opportunity to understand a bit more about its probable characteristics including the ergonomics of the layout of the controls and cockpit.

We've certainly not asked for a test sail without being willing to make a serious commitment - the first time we did, we went on to buy the boat ad the second time, we only subsequently pulled out when the survey uncovered significant defects. Since then, we have purchased new twice and in each case have gone for a test sail first. My experience with dealers is that they are very willing to arrange test sails on new boats - one AWB dealer was calling us to ask when we could make time and another was offering to make a contribution to our travel costs down to the Med because that was the nearest place they could arrange a test sail on the boat we were interested in.

It is very different with private second hand sales. The test sail really does have to be organised with the seller, not the broker - in your case with a seller out of the country, I'm not surprised that you are getting a refusal. Personally, I would look elsewhere - but that is just me. There's a lot of boats on the market, so try to find one that you can test.

 

[Topcat47]

I have seen a number of boats, appointments to view being arranged with the broker. I would not buy a boat that I had not had a trial sail in, although in all my past trial sails the owner was the skipper. Its like paying for a haul out as part of the vetting process...as a purchaser if you want a propper survey for your peace of mind, buyer pays. I have twice been asked to pay for launch and recovery of a vessel ashore in order to go for a sail (I declined both times) but if the boat is in the water, there really is no excuse for saying "no".

 

[Tranona]

I disagree - it should be of some relevance in demonstrating that the OP is serious. In the other thread ( http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?352477-Buying-a-boat-this-can-t-be-right-can-it ) I believe Jonic said that his serious buyers tended to come midweek, while the dreamers and tyre-kickers used their free time at weekends.

Pete

The point I was making is that anybody viewing the boat has to travel to see it, so it is irrelevant whether it is 5 miles down the road or 350. Bit daft to see the distance travelled as a measure of commitment to buy.

 

[maby]

The point I was making is that anybody viewing the boat has to travel to see it, so it is irrelevant whether it is 5 miles down the road or 350. Bit daft to see the distance travelled as a measure of commitment to buy.

Sorry, but have to disagree there - 5 miles takes a few minutes and is no disincentive - 350 miles is going to take hours and cost a significant amount of money no matter how you travel - a willingness to travel such a long distance is indicative of a serious degree on interest. In the case of our failed attempt to buy a second hand AWB a few years ago, we came away well over a thousand out of pocket by the time we had paid for a lift, survey and several trips to the marina (and that was less than 350 miles away) - an indication of our seriousness, I would say.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry, but have to disagree there - 5 miles takes a few minutes and is no disincentive - 350 miles is going to take hours and cost a significant amount of money no matter how you travel - a willingness to travel such a long distance is indicative of a serious degree on interest. In the case of our failed attempt to buy a second hand AWB a few years ago, we came away well over a thousand out of pocket by the time we had paid for a lift, survey and several trips to the marina (and that was less than 350 miles away) - an indication of our seriousness, I would say.

Maybe from your perspective as a buyer, but not necessarily from a vendor's perspective. Every enquirer is the same in principle until they have seen the boat and made an offer. As vendors and brokers will tell you potential buyers can string along right to a verbal offer and then disappear when the crunch comes of a contract to sign. So not surprisingly there is always some scepticism about the way people express their interest and try to convince on their level of seriousness. Most boats generate large numbers of hits - maybe in the 00's, viewings perhaps in the double figures and all those have different motivations which the vendor knows little about until the crunch comes when the key things are will he sign a contract and does he have the money. How far he has to travel is just one of the things that may or may not be helpful in finding out those two key things. Just ask yourself, does the fact that he has to travel 350 miles make you more confident he is going to buy rather than someone who does not say how far he has to travel? Does it make him any more worthy of spending your time taking him for a test sail just because he has had to travel? To the point that he has viewed the boat, sits down and discusses a purchase contract he is the same as all the other voices on the phone or on the email.

 

[Blueboatman]

Maybe, just maybe, the owner has given the broker or A N Other permission to skipper the boat but, again, this takes up someones valuable time from doing other things .
Has a fee been discussed for trial sailing? Possibly refundable on purchase..

Or read the magazines, natter to the owners association, ask on here for a demo on a sister ship. All firstly IMO
But, a day off work and a nice jolly to view a boat some distance away sounds a tad premature to me from the vendors assessment pov. In essence, what Tranona says

 

[Bosun Higgs]

wouldnt consider allowing a trial sail unless the boat was in the water and the buyer had got to the deposit stage. Too many people simply want a day out and in any case there are magazine report which will tell you how a boat sails.

 

[maby]

wouldnt consider allowing a trial sail unless the boat was in the water and the buyer had got to the deposit stage. Too many people simply want a day out and in any case there are magazine report which will tell you how a boat sails.

But would you trust PBO?

 

[prv]

But would you trust PBO?

No.

Pete

 

[JumbleDuck]

It is (in my opinion) a very unsatisfactory aspect of boat purchasing and one of the reasons why we always buy new these days.

The business of making an offer before having a survey done seems weird to me, perhaps because I have always bought houses in Scotland and up here we get a survey before making the offer.

 

[JumbleDuck]

... in any case there are magazine report which will tell you how a boat sails.

Reports on second hand boats can be useful, but I wouldn't put any great reliance on reviews done of boats when new. No magazine likes upsetting advertisers.

 

[SailorBill]

It is (in my opinion) a very unsatisfactory aspect of boat purchasing and one of the reasons why we always buy new these days. A boat is one of the most expensive purchases most of us make - I was going to say second only to our houses, but our boat cost more than the house! I don't think anyone buys a car without a test drive and I doubt many people buy a light aircraft without a test flight - but we are expected to cough up many tens of thousands of pounds - if not hundreds of thousands - without having seen our prospective purchase in motion. The arguments from brokers that we don't expect to be allowed to spend the night in a house we are thinking of buying are a bit fatuous - houses don't move, so you can get a pretty good understanding of it on the strength of an hour or so looking round. I do appreciate that a short test sail will not tell you how it is going to handle in a wide range of conditions, but it will certainly give you the opportunity to understand a bit more about its probable characteristics including the ergonomics of the layout of the controls and cockpit.

We've certainly not asked for a test sail without being willing to make a serious commitment - the first time we did, we went on to buy the boat ad the second time, we only subsequently pulled out when the survey uncovered significant defects. Since then, we have purchased new twice and in each case have gone for a test sail first. My experience with dealers is that they are very willing to arrange test sails on new boats - one AWB dealer was calling us to ask when we could make time and another was offering to make a contribution to our travel costs down to the Med because that was the nearest place they could arrange a test sail on the boat we were interested in.

It is very different with private second hand sales. The test sail really does have to be organised with the seller, not the broker - in your case with a seller out of the country, I'm not surprised that you are getting a refusal. Personally, I would look elsewhere - but that is just me. There's a lot of boats on the market, so try to find one that you can test.

+ 1 Very well said.

The secondhand boat buying process seems to be designed to discourage buyers while making life as easy as possible for the broker and seller unless a 'dead cert' buyer comes along. As a buyer I am expected to drop 10 to 20K (in my case, for the next boat) into a broker's so called client account (which does not protect my money at all) before I can get a sea trial, which may be my first time underway on a particular design. The argument from the supporters of the current laughable 'norm' is that I should know enough about a particular boat design before deciding which particular example to buy. The flaw in this argument is obvious but the current way of doing things does nothing to encourage buyers into the market place, in fact I think it scares many away. Is it any wonder the used boat market is slow? I don't think it is all down to the economy.

Want to buy a house? No cost to the buyer to view as many as they like before they find the right one. Sellers often open their doors to many potential buyers before the right one comes along. It's a numbers game.

Want to buy a car? No cost to the buyer to view and test drive a secondhand car. Several people might have to be shown the car, and test drive it, before the right buyer comes along.

Want to buy a light aircraft or share in one? No cost to view and in my experience nothing other than a nominal contribution to the cost of the test flight may (note "may") be requested.

Want to buy a boat? Typically no test sail available, 10% deposit required in a non-protected broker's client account before lift out, survey, lift in and sea trial, by which time a buyer will be several hundred or several thousand out of pocket and has to hope the broker will return the deposit if it is decided not to proceed. What a great disincentive to buy a secondhand boat!