Older Southerly rudder configuration

[NigelCraig]

These may end up on my "possibles" list next year so I just wanted to know which model should perhaps be avoided. As I understand it, the 95 and 105 have a transom hung rudder which slides down but the 100 has a rather small rudder because it is mounted in a different way. Later models, which may well have a twin rudder arrangement, are out of my range.

 

[E39mad]

Don't think there are any particular models to be avoided.

The transom hung rudder 95 was extended to become the 100 with protected shallower fixed rudder. Essentially the same boat otherwise.

Same goes from the 105 to 115 (until the Series 2 came out circa 1992 with an improved keel design). The 115 does have a larger aft cabin with a heads in the walk through option.

Whichever one you chose they like to (are best) sailed fairly flat so reef at around 17 knots of apparent wind.

 

[jamesjermain]

Handling and directional stability of all the single rudder Southerlies is a bit suspect although they got a little batter as time went on. The introduction of twin rudders transformed the marque. I'd be inclined to avoid the original Southerly 28 which is quite long in the tooth and might be expensive to bring up to scratch.

 

[NigelCraig]

Handling and directional stability of all the single rudder Southerlies is a bit suspect although they got a little batter as time went on. The introduction of twin rudders transformed the marque. I'd be inclined to avoid the original Southerly 28 which is quite long in the tooth and might be expensive to bring up to scratch.

Thanks, I'll bear that in mind although definitely won't be able to afford a twin rudder model. At least with Southerly I know I can trust the lifting keel mechanism - see the occasional lift keel Fulmar (at the other extreme of boats I might consider!) but not sure Westerly would have the same know how.

 

[Cardo]

For what it's worth, we are happy with our Southerly 105. Though she is pretty unique in that the previous owner converted her to twin transom hung rudders.

The accommodation compared to other boats of the same size is just fantastic.

 

[NigelCraig]

For what it's worth, we are happy with our Southerly 105. Though she is pretty unique in that the previous owner converted her to twin transom hung rudders.

The accommodation compared to other boats of the same size is just fantastic.

Was that a Northshore designed/executed conversion? Doesn't sound like an average DIY job!

 

[wotayottie]

These may end up on my "possibles" list next year so I just wanted to know which model should perhaps be avoided. As I understand it, the 95 and 105 have a transom hung rudder which slides down but the 100 has a rather small rudder because it is mounted in a different way. Later models, which may well have a twin rudder arrangement, are out of my range.

Southerly moved to twin rudders at extra cost because the shallow single rudder used to lift out of the water at angles of heel and therefore the boats performed badly trying to sail in strong winds. All according to southerly themselves when I was talking about buying one.

You will notice that many other makers of lift keel boats have twin rudders for exactly the same reason. A few like Ovni have a lifting / pivoting rudder

 

[Cardo]

Was that a Northshore designed/executed conversion? Doesn't sound like an average DIY job!

The previous owner was a mechanical engineer and clearly liked to dabble! He did have some input from Northshore, but he did all the work himself. Well, mostly.

 

[E39mad]

Southerly moved to twin rudders at extra cost because the shallow single rudder used to lift out of the water at angles of heel and therefore the boats performed badly trying to sail in strong winds. All according to southerly themselves when I was talking about buying one.

You will notice that many other makers of lift keel boats have twin rudders for exactly the same reason. A few like Ovni have a lifting / pivoting rudder

I have sailed many Southerlies with single rudders in varying conditions and never lost steerage due to the rudder lifting out the rudder. There is no/little buoyancy in the stern end. One reason for the twin rudders was to increase stern width and internal accommodation to keep up with the competition.

 

[wotayottie]

I'm only quoting what southerly staff told me, and they should know. You are also ignoring the evidence of all the other builders taking a similar route.

Nothing much to do with the width of the stern. Just look at the geometry and see the effect of heel on rudder draught. Then bear in mind that the rudder has to be very shallow to allow the boat to take to the ground. Heeling reduces significantly the effectiveness of the rudder which is already pretty shallow.

 

[Mistroma]

S95

You can't leave the helm on an S95 as it will wander off course and you do need to reef early otherwise the helm does become heavy. Pretty much the same as many other yachts but more extreme.

However, I was always happy with mine (for ~23 years and 19,000+ miles) and the S95 sails much better than the S100. Avoid the S28 as mentioned, completely different beast in terms of performance.

The single rudder is great for handling in shallow water, just lift the keel as little as you can get away with to enter a harbour and wait till it drags along the bottom. Have someone below to lift the keel as needed (keep rudder almost fully up). You can keep moving by having the keel clear of the bottom and also stop and spin on the tip by lowering it slightly and using propwash to turn (obviously doesn't work with twin rudder models). Just trying to turn with keel up in shallows doesn't work due to flat bottom and high windage.

The metal tube on the rudder is a slight weak point as it can bend when rudder is fully up and boat surges back over the ground as the boat dries. Not exactly a big deal though as it only makes part of the lift drop a bit stiff and is easy to bend back. I had this problem twice in around 20+ years so not exactly a big worry.

You can find a link to my old web-site at the bottom of the page for my current boat (see signature link below)

 

[NigelCraig]

You can't leave the helm on an S95 as it will wander off course and you do need to reef early otherwise the helm does become heavy. Pretty much the same as many other yachts but more extreme.

However, I was always happy with mine (for ~23 years and 19,000+ miles) and the S95 sails much better than the S100. Avoid the S28 as mentioned, completely different beast in terms of performance.

The single rudder is great for handling in shallow water, just lift the keel as little as you can get away with to enter a harbour and wait till it drags along the bottom. Have someone below to lift the keel as needed (keep rudder almost fully up). You can keep moving by having the keel clear of the bottom and also stop and spin on the tip by lowering it slightly and using propwash to turn (obviously doesn't work with twin rudder models). Just trying to turn with keel up in shallows doesn't work due to flat bottom and high windage.

The metal tube on the rudder is a slight weak point as it can bend when rudder is fully up and boat surges back over the ground as the boat dries. Not exactly a big deal though as it only makes part of the lift drop a bit stiff and is easy to bend back. I had this problem twice in around 20+ years so not exactly a big worry.

You can find a link to my old web-site at the bottom of the page for my current boat (see signature link below)

Brilliant -your website was just what I needed. Managing the helm and the keel with one pair of hands sounds a challenge! but I have come across one person sailing (or was he motoring?) one single handed although it may have been a Carter 28

 

[Mistroma]

Glad it was useful, let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll try to help.

You will be a bit busy sailing alone in shallow water as it takes around 86 strokes to raise the keel. Not a huge effort but it does take a few minutes. I guess that you'd mostly just lift 1/2 way and leave it there if entering shallow water . That will give you some directional stability with much reduced draft. Problems usually occur in crowded areas in windy weather. That's when it is very useful to have someone on the keel control if it is shallow as you can start, stop and pivot on the spot with ease.

I actually preferred to enter a harbour with 3-4 feet of depth rather than 6+ feet. I knew that I could stop instantly with the handbrake (keel down) and then turn to point in any desired direction before moving again (just lift keel slightly and pivot using prop wash).

 

[Cardo]

Glad it was useful, let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll try to help.

You will be a bit busy sailing alone in shallow water as it takes around 86 strokes to raise the keel. Not a huge effort but it does take a few minutes. I guess that you'd mostly just lift 1/2 way and leave it there if entering shallow water . That will give you some directional stability with much reduced draft. Problems usually occur in crowded areas in windy weather. That's when it is very useful to have someone on the keel control if it is shallow as you can start, stop and pivot on the spot with ease.

I actually preferred to enter a harbour with 3-4 feet of depth rather than 6+ feet. I knew that I could stop instantly with the handbrake (keel down) and then turn to point in any desired direction before moving again (just lift keel slightly and pivot using prop wash).

Or get a boat with an electro-hydraulic conversion, like ours!

 

[Mistroma]

Or get a boat with an electro-hydraulic conversion, like ours!

Yes, I actually included that and quite a bit more but managed to hit wrong key, moved off the page and lost the lot. I made it a lot shorter second time around and missed mentioning it.

I think it was just something like:

"You can modify the hydraulics to lift and lower using an electric pump or engine driven pump. That would be great if combined with a remote control. I have heard of this but never run into anyone with the conversion so don't know about cost or installation problems."

Good to know that it does exist and not a figment of my imagination. I expect that you completely replace the standard pump with reservoir or is it left in place as a manual backup (makes sense). I suspect that an electric pump would be a better bet than an engine driven one. Is that what you have?

 

[Cardo]

Yes, I actually included that and quite a bit more but managed to hit wrong key, moved off the page and lost the lot. I made it a lot shorter second time around and missed mentioning it.

I think it was just something like:

"You can modify the hydraulics to lift and lower using an electric pump or engine driven pump. That would be great if combined with a remote control. I have heard of this but never run into anyone with the conversion so don't know about cost or installation problems."

Good to know that it does exist and not a figment of my imagination. I expect that you completely replace the standard pump with reservoir or is it left in place as a manual backup (makes sense). I suspect that an electric pump would be a better bet than an engine driven one. Is that what you have?

Ours is a pretty beefy electric pump however the original hand operated pump has also been left in situ as a backup. We then have a remote on a long lead. Up operates the pump and down operates a solenoid and the keel drops with gravity.

 

[toad]

Ours is a pretty beefy electric pump however the original hand operated pump has also been left in situ as a backup. We then have a remote on a long lead. Up operates the pump and down operates a solenoid and the keel drops with gravity.

Same as mine I used a transit tipper motor to convert. It cost about £150 to convert to electric/hydraulic with a switch at the helm.

 

[Greenheart]

Do Southerlies ever tilt back a few degrees when dried out? I always thought the rudders look slightly vulnerable.

Isn't it odd that centreboard-versatility hasn't persuaded numerous builders to produce most of their yachts this way?

I mean, out of all the yacht designs which don't aim to be particularly sporty, how many of them are any better than same-sized centreboarders, just because their keels don't allow access to shallow water?

Lots of cruisers don't worry about performance, but they still wear non-retractable keels. Are Southerlies actually pretty rotten under sail, compared with indifferent, moderate fin/twin-keeled yachts? If the centreboarder is no worse, who'd want a deep keel?

As a dinghy-sailor, a really big centreboarder seems to me the best of all worlds, but they're not very popular. Why not?

 

[E39mad]

The design of the Southerly keel and grounding plate are (were?) patented. The centreboard as you put it is actually a ballasted keel with 1/3 of the ballast with the remaining 2/3rds within a cast iron grounding plate. It is a clever design and necessitates complex internal mouldings to house the system. All this costs additional money over a "standard" keel and hull.

The grounding plate means the boat is stable both on the ground or with the keel up motoring into shallow waters.

When you say do they ever tilt backwards I presume you mean the lifting rudder models?

 

[Tranona]

Isn't it odd that centreboard-versatility hasn't persuaded numerous builders to produce most of their yachts this way?

It is not the builders that are the "problem" - but those nasty customers who tend to buy what suits their requirements rather than what others think they ought to have.

Many builders have produced variable depth keel boats, usually drop keel of some sort, often as an option to deep keels or twin keels. They rarely sell in any numbers, even when the boat itself is very popular (think Fulmar and Sadlers as examples) for the simple reason that for most people draft (within reason) is not an issue and therefore the "benefits" are not worth the premium required to pay for the extra complexity.

Where they have been successful is in boats like the Southerly and Ovni where the keel arrangement is central to the design philosophy and results in a distinctly different boat that appeals to a small number of people who are prepared to pay the cost.