Old WNS thread - was the 'expert' right? (long post)

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Last week we made a passage from the Solent to Guernsey. Crossing the SW bound shipping lane, we encountered some traffic and ended up in a situation not dissimilar to that posed in this WNS thread.

We were crossing on a heading of (say) 180º and a ship (I'll call it Ship A) was approaching from port on a heading of (say) 270º. We were making ~18kts. Time was ~1200 and visibility was excellent. We are not in a TSS. Whilst Ship A was still a considerable distance away (>3nm according to radar), I assessed (by eye) that we were on a possible collision course. Obviously I was the stand on vessel. I decided to maintain course and speed in accordance with colregs and see how things developed. There was another ship (Ship B) to port of Ship A, on about the same heading but moving faster and I assessed that it would comfortably pass ahead of us. There was also another ship (Ship C) behind and to starboard of Ship A but it was clear that we would comfortably pass ahead of it. At the time we were ~1nm east of our straight line track to Alderney, due to tidal effect, that I had deliberately decided not to correct, expecting a compensating push back to the west when the tide turned.

A few minutes passed and I could not see any appreciable change in the bearing of Ship A, so wondered if he intended to take avoiding action, but decided to wait a bit longer. A further few minutes passed and, according to MARPA, CPA was <0.1 nm. I'm now somewhat doubtful that Ship A is going to take action and the bearing (by eye) is very steady. There's no actual danger because the distance is still >1nm so I have plenty of time to take action if needed. Ship B is now directly ahead and crossing and Ship C is still a long way off.

A further period passes and the bearing to Ship A is still steady (perhaps reducing a little) and the MARPA alarm ("dangerous contact") sounds, although the distance is still ~1nm. There is no real danger or concern but I decide that I will take action because Ship A doesn't appear to be. I assess that we will pass just ahead, but too close for comfort. MARPA did show a speed for Ship A but I find it hugely erratic so don't take much notice of it. I assess the possibilities:

A) turn to port on reciprocal track (090º) to Ship A then, when appropriate, pass behind him
B) do 180º turn and pass behind Ship A
C) slow down or stop to allow Ship A to pass ahead
D) turn 90º to starboard on to parallel heading then re-assess

My instinct was option A. There was still plenty of distance between us (we were at least 0.5nm north of the track intersection), and I knew I could easily progressively turn to starboard to track Ship A's stern so slip behind without going too far east of our desired track. Ship C was a possible concern as it was further north than Ship A but it was still a long way (>3M off) so I was happy that we would not interfere with her.

I considered B but concluded that the time to do a 180º turn would not change things materially. Would it 'look' better to accomplish A by a 270º turn to starboard? Possibly but, imo, it makes virtually no practical difference.

I considered and dismissed C, partly because I felt it unncessary and wasteful to incur the cost of coming off the plane and getting back on. I also considered it unwise to 'loiter' in front of Ship C.

I remembered the WNS thread above and that the "expert" view was, in essence, option D (90º turn to starboard). So, somewhat against my own judgment, I went for option D with the intention of either waiting for Ship A to overtake or closing Ship A's track gradually then, if sufficiently far ahead, turn 90º to port and cross ahead. After a few minutes, it became clear that our speeds were closely matched - the distance between us and Ship A was not appreciably changing but it was still >0.5nm off. I was (probably wrongly) reluctant to change my decision so, instead, I pushed the speed up by 2kts or so to increase the gap.

Well, it took about 10-15 minutes at the higher speed before the gap had widened sufficiently for me to judge it prudent to cross ahead of Ship A, and for much of that time I was looking over my shoulder to see what was happening. I did cross ahead of it without incident and resumed our course, but we were now about 2nm west of the straight line track instead of 1nm east.

My conclusion is that option A was a better choice. It would have kept Ship A firmly in the windscreen and the avoidance process would have take perhaps a minute or two instead of ten to fifteen. With respect to whoever advised Tony Jones, I can't see anything wrong, in these circumstances, in the port turn provided there is still plenty of time and sea room to re-assess if needed. Next time I will follow my judgment.
 
Don't know the answer to your question, but think I should have opted for a different course of action to the one I took...
 

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I thought the WNS answer was unnecessarily time consuming when it was first aired. The risk of a turn to port of course is that the ship steers to stbd at the same time to go behind you, and you then confuse him. It would be interesting to hear a commercial skippers view, I reckon they must regularly alter course for small fast pleasure boats, which then change direction at the last minute anyway.
 
Bloody silly forum, I thought I'd replied to this, ages ago.

I'd have waited till quite close, then turned to port, or turned to port very soon, so hardly turning at all.

The thing with turning late is, the ship can only turn quite slowly, so theres no way of him hitting you even if he does turn to starboard.

I dont think they bother turning for fast mobo's, it's much easier for you to miss them, without any bother.
 
I agree with HLB and keep going until close and then turn to pass astern.
Never ever seen any sign of a large commercial vessel altering course for a small boat.
Often hear large commercial vessels challenging each other about collision courses in ther English Channel, so what chance have we got?
 
I agree with HLB and keep going until close and then turn to pass astern.
Never ever seen any sign of a large commercial vessel altering course for a small boat.
Often hear large commercial vessels challenging each other about collision courses in ther English Channel, so what chance have we got?
Agree. I wouldn't expect a ship to change course for a mere leisure vessel despite the colregs. It just ain't going to happen, so I'd base my decisions on the assumption a ship is very very unlikely to change course even if strictly speaking I was the stand on vessel. Take decisions to keep ones self out of harm and let the ship look after itself.
 
I have to say my philosophy is-if it's bigger than me, give way to it...just found myself a bit closer to that container ship than felt comfortable...thought I had it easily beaten-the pic doesn't convey the actual menace the bow bearing down on us conveyed!
 
Yup, I agree option A. Gets it over and done with quickly. If the ship turns starboard you can take further avoiding action if needed, so option A creates no risk of collision in practice.

Incidentally, I'm just back from a 940mile/2 week cruise, in very busy waters, where the waterways sometimes felt like M25, and I'm amazed how many vessels incl same size as mine did a "ship A" on me. I reckon I had to do your option A about 3-4 times. To be fair, sometimes the misbehaving boat had a dilemma that if he gave way to me he then got into close quarters with another boat, and you have to be forgiving when that happens. And remeber that in Italian waters slowing down is never an option, it's not in their psyche. One time I was driving into porto Vecchio in the buoyed channel, right over to staroard, my starboard side almost touching the buoys, about 8 kts and this Ferretti 830 came towards me on reciprocal course to mine. I couldn't figure out why he didn't move over to the correct side of channel. Eventually, to avoid, I steered to starboard and ran just outside the buoys. Ferretti driver? Alain Prost :-)
 
Can you imagine what it would be like, if cars and pedestrians gave way, dependant on which were towards port or starboard. It would be absolute chaos. More sencibly the pedestrians usually wait for a gap in the traffic, before venturing across.
 
And remeber that in Italian waters slowing down is never an option, it's not in their psyche.
Naah, we're just sensible to MMGW, see? Slowing down means more CO2 while accelerating to get back to cruising speed. :D

On a side note, I was the first to suggest turning to port on that thread, but for some reason the easier approaches never seem to work in WNS...
 
Naah, we're just sensible to MMGW, see? Slowing down means more CO2 while accelerating to get back to cruising speed. :D

On a side note, I was the first to suggest turning to port on that thread, but for some reason the easier approaches never seem to work in WNS...

Dont worry, I've been chastised for saying, turn to port on here, even when turning to starboard ment you rammed the beggar.
 
I'm confused now lol ! I'm doing the powerboat level 2 and in the book they give out it says that if you're on a collision course with another vessel you should both turn to starboard, but on here you're saying turn to port, which is correct and why ?

An ignorant newbie ;) but learning fast :D
 
I'm confused now lol ! I'm doing the powerboat level 2 and in the book they give out it says that if you're on a collision course with another vessel you should both turn to starboard, but on here you're saying turn to port, which is correct and why ?

An ignorant newbie ;) but learning fast :D

You are correct HOWEVER, if you had right of way on roundabout and a juggernaut was bearing down on you, would you insist on your right of way or back off?

It is the same with meeting a supertanker!
 
I dont think that there is a 'right' answer to this stuff.

If you avoid a close quarter situation then you have done it 'right' esp. if you do not cause the other vessel any hassle.

I think most (with some experience) of us on here act to avoid a situation delevoping in the first place as its mostly quite simple to spot the bother before it happens.

What is not 'right' is altering to port for a vessel on your own port side when its close.

You would be hung out to dry IMHO.
 
I dont think that there is a 'right' answer to this stuff.

If you avoid a close quarter situation then you have done it 'right' esp. if you do not cause the other vessel any hassle.

I think most (with some experience) of us on here act to avoid a situation delevoping in the first place as its mostly quite simple to spot the bother before it happens.

What is not 'right' is altering to port for a vessel on your own port side when its close.

You would be hung out to dry IMHO.



But we're exactly talking about passing port to port, but on the other hand, we were never thinking of having a colision in the first place.

Given good weather, I would think it fairly impossible for a ship to hit a fast mobo, even if it tried
 
Option A woudl have been my choice.

Agree. I wouldn't expect a ship to change course for a mere leisure vessel despite the colregs. It just ain't going to happen, so I'd base my decisions on the assumption a ship is very very unlikely to change course even if strictly speaking I was the stand on vessel. Take decisions to keep ones self out of harm and let the ship look after itself.

I do my boating in the solent where commercial vessels have right of way over leisure vessels, hence its in my psyche to assume commercial vessel is not going to move despite my reight of way.

Keeping one self out of harm is an excellent prinicple.
 
Given good weather, I would think it fairly impossible for a ship to hit a fast mobo, even if it tried

I agree with that haydn. And that's why I think you can reasonably interpret colregs according to the type of vessel you're helming and the type of vessel you encounter. An avoidance manoeuvre that would be unsafe (or at least unwise) if made by a large ship encountering another of similar size would be perfectly valid, imo, if executed by a fast, manoeuvrable small vessel. The turn to port I favoured in my OP would almost certainly not have been appropriate if I had been conning a vessel of similar size to the one I was trying to avoid.
 
This is not a Col reg situation. No ones going to hit anyone. Turning to port and passing astern of the ship is sencible, turning to starboard and trying to outrun the ship, makes no sence at all. Stopping is of course an option.
 
You could have slowed down.

I'm not clear why you dismissed option C, which seems to me the prudent choice and compatible with the ColRegs. You say this would have left you loitering in front of vessel C, but you would have been further from it than with your turn to port, and in any case you had said that it was a long way off.

Do you really factor in the cost of coming off the plane in deciding whether to comply with the ColRegs or put yourself in greater proximity, and hence danger, with the big boys? If so what percentage increase in the cost of your 90+ mile trip did you factor intto your decision?

The turn to port is most definitely contrary to the Regs. (17c) when you have other options.
 
You could have slowed down.

I'm not clear why you dismissed option C, which seems to me the prudent choice and compatible with the ColRegs. You say this would have left you loitering in front of vessel C, but you would have been further from it than with your turn to port, and in any case you had said that it was a long way off.

Do you really factor in the cost of coming off the plane in deciding whether to comply with the ColRegs or put yourself in greater proximity, and hence danger, with the big boys? If so what percentage increase in the cost of your 90+ mile trip did you factor intto your decision?

The turn to port is most definitely contrary to the Regs. (17c) when you have other options.

But he was not having a colision, was he. He was simply walking round the back of a bus, instead of infront of it.

Why try to make a drama out of it.
 
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