Keen_Ed
Well-Known Member
Too much invested capital in the existing fleet to make an entire fleet replacement make sense.
Old racers
- Thread starter Resolution
- Start date
Too much invested capital in the existing fleet to make an entire fleet replacement make sense.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Indeed. Until someone comes up with a better product that provides either a better experience or maybe better value for money. That's progress for you.
The background to starting the thread is that I wanted to know if there were any new boats significantly better all round for this type of elderly competitive sailing. Predictably most responses have missed the point, except for the early reply from Flaming with his nomination of the J 100. I am a bit surprised that no-one has nominated any other modern boats from the less-expensive brands.
Peter
r_h
Well-Known Member
Sunfast 3200 or Mustang 30
flaming
Well-Known Member
There is of course one major contradiction in your ideal spec.
That you would like an Asymetric kite, you're going to sail with a crew of "senior" aged people and you don't want anything too exciting.
Herein lies the problem that only J have ever really cracked in the production market, and then only really in the slightly larger sizes. The 100, for all that it is a lovely boat, is not really a success on the race course.
When you have a displacement hull your best VMG is always going to come from running deep. For this you need a symmetric kite. If you have an A-sail you need one with ridiculous shoulders, and to heel the boat to windward to allow it to rotate round. The J97's and 109s have got this down to a tee. But it's hard work, and doesn't really fit with your ideal of low stress senior racing.
To be sucessful with an A-sail you really need a planing hull.
So I would say there's a very good reason most senior sailors wind up in displacement symmetric keelboats, on most of them you can gybe the kite stood at the mast, and the handling is straightforward.
Your other alternative would be to recruit a young thing to run the foredeck for you, then you have a lot of choice in what sort of boat you would like!
If you're determined to stick to an A sail design, then there is also the Tofinou range (marketed by the same people as the Js). Drop dead gorgeous but if you thought the Js were expensive...
That you would like an Asymetric kite, you're going to sail with a crew of "senior" aged people and you don't want anything too exciting.
Herein lies the problem that only J have ever really cracked in the production market, and then only really in the slightly larger sizes. The 100, for all that it is a lovely boat, is not really a success on the race course.
When you have a displacement hull your best VMG is always going to come from running deep. For this you need a symmetric kite. If you have an A-sail you need one with ridiculous shoulders, and to heel the boat to windward to allow it to rotate round. The J97's and 109s have got this down to a tee. But it's hard work, and doesn't really fit with your ideal of low stress senior racing.
To be sucessful with an A-sail you really need a planing hull.
So I would say there's a very good reason most senior sailors wind up in displacement symmetric keelboats, on most of them you can gybe the kite stood at the mast, and the handling is straightforward.
Your other alternative would be to recruit a young thing to run the foredeck for you, then you have a lot of choice in what sort of boat you would like!
If you're determined to stick to an A sail design, then there is also the Tofinou range (marketed by the same people as the Js). Drop dead gorgeous but if you thought the Js were expensive...
Resolution
Well-Known Member
I had a good look at the Sun Fast 3200 at the London Boat Show and a long chat with Nigel Colley (who races his mostly two-handed in distance races). It looks a far better hull shape than the Sun Fast 32s of a decade ago and which I remember as being fast and fun but rather hard to keep in a straight line. And the interior fit-out is clear and effective. Possibly a touch bigger than needed for short Solent racing, and certainly more powerful than needed for geriatric crew! Good suggestion though.
r_h
Well-Known Member
The boat he had at this year's show was the 3600, which is significantly more powerful than the extra 4ft compared to the 3200 would suggest. But the 3200 is still a big step on from the older Sun Fast 32s.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Flaming
As usual, your comments are very pertinent. The question of deck work on the foredeck is crucial. As you will find as you get older, diminished agility is a real gamebreaker. Most of my sailing pals can still wind a winch, trim a sail, waggle a tiller and desire to go faster than the boat next door. But ask us to step out onto a small foredeck and it all gets very slow and uncertain. So I was hoping that one could devise a "small" asymmetric setup which could be handled during racing from within the cockpit. Handicap factors not a big worry, as racing has to be one-design for real fun.
The Tofinou is indeed a fabulous toy and a couple of my friends have owned one. Both said that they sailed very well. But at that price and with that quality of finish it is just too valuable for close quarters racing.
Thanks for the food for thought.
Peter
As usual, your comments are very pertinent. The question of deck work on the foredeck is crucial. As you will find as you get older, diminished agility is a real gamebreaker. Most of my sailing pals can still wind a winch, trim a sail, waggle a tiller and desire to go faster than the boat next door. But ask us to step out onto a small foredeck and it all gets very slow and uncertain. So I was hoping that one could devise a "small" asymmetric setup which could be handled during racing from within the cockpit. Handicap factors not a big worry, as racing has to be one-design for real fun.
The Tofinou is indeed a fabulous toy and a couple of my friends have owned one. Both said that they sailed very well. But at that price and with that quality of finish it is just too valuable for close quarters racing.
Thanks for the food for thought.
Peter
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Silly of me. Of course you are right on the size.
flaming
Well-Known Member
One of the things I really like about yacht racing is the way many crews are made up of several generations. There was a chap in our fleet, sadly no longer with us, who was well north of 70 and sailed with a crew of a couple of "experienced" people and a bunch of 20 somethings, all of whom clearly loved being on the boat. Sounds to me like the desire not to be wobbling about on the foredeck could just be a great excuse to get a youngster into sailing.
markhomer
Well-Known Member
JS 9000 if you dont mind heeling over , piss o piddle for two wrinkles to sail ,J speed at tenth of cost , only prob would be finding enough of them to get a fleet 
Resolution
Well-Known Member
JS 9000 if you dont mind heeling over , piss o piddle for two wrinkles to sail ,J speed at tenth of cost , only prob would be finding enough of them to get a fleet
Mark
Thanks, that looks an absolute screamer and meets a lot of my criteria. Weird keel.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
There is a GibSea close to my mooring that might illustrate a way forward even if the boat itself is out of production. He has a self tacking jib on a furler and an asymetric on a prong and again on a furler. Now whilst Flamings comments are no doubt valid for the really serious Solent types, the set up I describe would be fine for my non Solent club racing. Going dead down wind - easy just goosewing the asymetric.
Dont forget as an oldie you have an advantage over these aggressive hot young things. You've been around, made all the mistakes and developed craftiness. Saw it last weekend - an older guy in a 32ft 1980s swedish cruiser beat a young guy with 8 crew in a 42 ft Bav match, the latter with carbon sails. All down to knowing the tides and eddies.