Oil Specification

[leadersail]

If a company lets say 'Volmerc' wants to earn a few extra $$$$$ on parts then oil is about the easiest to Brand.

It comes imported in via Bulk tankers already tested to AP GL API .
As the company isn't a major player such as Castrol and only speculates on a limited amount a new oil will not be designed, the addertives to reduce acid from engine soot are added prior to the tanker being used to fill 1 L, 5 L and 20 L containers, Drums are also filled for bulk users.
Several Brands some well known and others unknown are filled from the same tanker.

In order to maximise Brand profit then an extra 'Test' is created, this will be formulated over a round of golf and has to be so obscure that no one else will ever want to replicate the test .

Example

Volmerc recomend oil to Volmerc-scam-con II

The cost to have scam-con tested independently is expensive £50 000 ??
The test could consist of

Oil needs to be left in a warm damp atmosphere for a week and then start an engine 5 times in quick succestion.

While at -5 degrees C has to drain through 1 mm mesh 100 L per hour.

For TWC tree oil has to pull start an engine 30 times while been sprinkled with water.

Now the oil is specified, it is exactly the same oil that was filled into the ' Mad Motorist Rally GT ' 5 L oil sold for £2.99 but one is 'tested' the other wasn't.
Both oils will withstand the test and afford the same level of protection.

That is not to say you should use any 'Mad Motorist Rally GT' oil as some could be recyled, but purchasing any branded oil will safeguard your engine from damage at the same time as safeguarding your wallet from Volmerc scams.

before you spend £20 per L on oil ask what the Volmerc scam-con II test was to test for and then ask yourself if you expect to use your boat in temperatures exceeding 120 degrees and below -20 degrees in the same start procedure, and then ask yourself if cheaper branded oil will also do it anyway !

 

[[2068]]

Not too sure what your point is here.

Most truck manufacturers have OEM specs which are in addition to the SAE/API/ACEA ones.

Frinstance, Cummins, DD, MAN, Renault, Mack, MTU, V*lvo etc. And truck oil like Mobil Devlac is tested & certified to those specs.

You can choose to buy an oil that isn't tested to those specs. It might perform the same, it might not. Given the price of marine diesel engines, I choose the oil with the right set of letters on the side!

dv.

 

[leadersail]

Hello S28,

There is no point in spending extra to buy letters on the side of a tin if the letters do not stand for anything useful.

Would you want to spend £10 extra per L on oil which is tested to stay gold in colour for 5 hours.

The cheaper oil also stays gold for 5 hours but no one thought to test it for colour.

I see you picture a Volvo engine, I presume you know what letters to look for on the side of a tin, now what extra test do the letters say has been carried out.

Are you likely to use your boat under those conditions the test was designed to replicate.
Is there any suggestion that all API oil will not pass the test should anyone carry out the same test.

 

[AdeOlly]

Before anybody sticks any old oil in their very expensive marine diesel to save a few quid, I suggest they spend 15 minutes reading this There is a small section around marine diesels, but the general info on oil is interesting if you're into oils.

 

[[2068]]

Using Mobil Delvac and the VDS-2 spec as an example:

###

ExxonMobil announces that its Mobil Delvac[R] 1300 Super 15W-40 diesel engine oil has earned Volvo's hard-to-achieve VDS-2 rating, putting the product in an elite group that meets stringent extended-drain requirements.

Engine oils approved for use in Volvo trucks must pass a rigorous field test conducted for nearly 200,000 miles and culminating in teardown engine inspections. Most approved oils are rated VDS; very few receive Volvo's higher VDS-2 rating, which is given only to those oils that meet a stricter performance standard and sanctions oil drain intervals of 25,000 miles.

###

dv.

 

[leadersail]

Excellent example , there are some rich boaters on this forum if they manage to cover 25 000 miles a season /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Another test formulated during a round of golf, lets strip an engine down after 200 000 miles and count number of particles of carbon .

Ask not how many oils have passed the test but more important ask how many oils have failed the test ?

 

[[2068]]

I think you're missing the point here.

I can buy cornish pasties from the licensed vendor with the food safety certificate, or I can chance it (normally when drunk) with the unlicensed one.

Both cornish pasties might physically be the same in content, taste, texture, and smell. BUT, with the licensed one, at least I know that that he's been on the training course that told him not to use the same knife for chopping rats and pastry. I don't ACTUALLY know whether he used the same knife for chopping rats and pastry because I haven't been standing behind him for the last 8 hours, but the certificate gives me some confidence that if he did commit some gross breach of food hygiene protocol, he might at least feel guilty about it.

Back to oil. The bog standard oil might well conform to VDS-3 if tested. A particular batch might even be the same stuff. BUT it hasn't been tested! It might only turn out to be compliant with the basic VDS spec. I haven't got the facilities to do the tests, but I do have two engines that could cost £18k a side to replace if they went bang, so what I am paying for is oil that is KNOWN to meet the correct spec.

dv.

 

[gjgm]

ok, Kad series seems to require VDS-2,ACEA E5, or API CH 4, SAE 15w/40.
Which part of those certifications are you suggesting are highly unlikely to be experienced by the normal UK boater (as opposed maybe to someone at -50c in Finland in winter, or whatever)?
I accept your point of why pay for a specification that your engine will never experience, but I would need educating as to why and what.
Didnt Neale just do a small article in MBM on this?

 

[[2068]]

I think it's the "VDS-2" (Volvo Drain Specification) he's getting wound up about.

dv.

 

[mainshiptom]

Ok so what Oil should I put in my Cummins? and where do I get it?

Tom

 

[gjgm]

yes, but what is the specific gain in VDS-2... I thought he was suggesting that the advantage of VDS 2 oils wasnt anything that most boaters would ever use... so is anyone able to be more specific?
I think its fair enough if Volvo have to recommend an oil that they then do so to the highest spec, and encompassing any possible environments. It might well be that hardly anyone need worry about that extra spec, because its only a few rare locations or uses that anyone would use it. But then, lets hear what it actually achieves.
Its about £4-5 a litre isnt it? Whats the cost of the next grade down? How much price advantage do we have in using something else?

 

[leadersail]

Thats right and it could be that the VSD 3 oil is exactly the same as the VSD2 oil, it just means an extra test was thought up.

The test is to run 200 000 km and then look at piston wear.

VDS3 try to test for wear after 400 engine hours , how many forum members manage that in a lifetime and it doesnt mean other oils will fail..

They could test any synthetic oil or semi synthetic oil and they will all pass the test.

They rely on Tescos not wanting to strip an engine down after 200 000km or 400 hours so that oil will not be tested.

 

[leadersail]

As to the Cornish pasty I think you are missing the point.

If two Cornish pasties were made in the same factory and one was tested to see how long it floated before it sank would you want to pay twice as much for it, just because it was stamped that it was awarded the very difficult to gain Volmerc con-scam float test.
The other one from the same factory is packaged differently and is not stamped with the float test.
It still floats just the same as the one that is certified to float but costs half as much.

 

[Latestarter1]

Tom,

All this stuff should have been in your CMD 'Captains Briefing' or at least your QSC Operation and Maintainence manual.

You require 15W40 to Spec API CH4/SJ ACEA E-5. CES2077.

To become your own lube oil Guru read Cummins Service Bulletin number 3810340-06 Dated 11th May 2007.

As Cummins pretty much own the 7.5/10 Tonne truck market and likewise single deck buses, availability of ACEA E5 oils is widespread it is the staple diet of the heavy truck industry so prices are as competeitive as you can get from oil suppliers/Factors.

For two engines and doing their own servicing most of my friends purchase by the drum and keep in the garage and dispense with a semi rotary drum pump.

Likewise Cummins Fleetguard filters are some of the most competitively priced. As Fleetguard set up dual distribution networks years ago and many commercial vehicle factors are Fleetguard stockists prices are restrained.

However you need to do your own research. For Example in the Torbay area the Gardner Agent in Brixham is the Fleetguard stockist and is far cheaper than Cummins Diesel Exeter for Fleetguard filters. If in Plymouth you go to Plymouth Citybus who are local Fleetguard agent for best pricing and everybody in the commercial business delivers at no extra cost.

Last time I looked a month ago 40 litre drum of Total 15W40 to ACEA E5 was £1.97 per litre however that is pretty much an auction at the moment.

 

[[2068]]

>VDS3 try to test for wear after 400 engine hours , how many forum members manage that in a lifetime

First boat was sold with 900 Hours on the clock.
Second one went with 400 Hours on the clock after 3 seasons.
Current one has (almost) 400 Hrs on the clocks...

dv.

 

[Peanuts]

I have read your post and I think I understand what you are getting at and I sort of agree with you, but you have got me thinking, Oh no say all my mates OK both of them!) what's he going to go on about now.
Most of the comments have been about volvo spec's, well this is my question. I have a 2002 S28 from new with KAD32's, the Volvo Owners manual supplied, dated 1999 states for the engine to use 15/40 VDS oil - note not VDS 2 or 3 just VDS. So in 1999 plain VDS oil was considered good enough for VP to recommend it for my engine, so now the question, why several years down the line do I have to use a higher spec oil - VDS3 on my engines. I appreciate that the specs of the oils will always be improving for todays modern technical engines but why is it not good enough anymore to use the old spec that was originally recommended?
As always I await the constructive answers from the 'experts' and just for the record my engines clocked the 1000 hour mark last Sunday whilst going down the main channel in Poole at 34kts! The oil I use by the way is Fuchs 15/40 or Turbomaster 15/40 from CPL, as supplied to probably most of the commercial boats in Poole

Steve

 

[leadersail]

Well spotted Peanut /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I was going to respond to S28 but it is like flogging a dead horse.

Engines not using VDS3 do not require a strip down to clean carbon deposits from the rings, S28 can confirm that his previous boats didn't need the pistons out.
As you are aware your engine has managed 1000 hours and there are plenty more with even more hours on the clock which have not needed carbon removed from piston rings.

Most owners clock up 50 -100 hours a season so why are they recommended to spend on oil that is certified to last 200-400 hours, are they recommended only to have a service once every 2 or 3 years ?

Modern oils are being developed to last longer in order that Lorries and cars that do huge miles a day can extend service intervals, the oils will have no benefit for 95% of car or boat owners who only cover a few miles.
It is the long term plan that new oils will allow small engine sumps but it will be at least 15 years before that happens with marine engines.

 

[me2]

"Oh no say all my mates OK both of them!)" both of them who on earth is the other one.!

 

[[2068]]

I'm really not sure about the bit about "no benefit".

If you look at any particular characteristic of oil performance over engine hours or time, let's use viscosity as an example, it will change, and follow a curve.

Let's assume that viscosity reaches an unacceptable value at 400 Hours with a VDS-3 oil, whereas with a VDS oil it reaches that value at 200 Hours. The boat does 100 hours in the year.

At the end of 100 hours, is the viscosity completely unchanged compared to new oil?
No! It has moved along the curve!

Does it follow some sort of step function?
No! It deteriorates progressively!

And in the case of the VDS oil it has moved further along that curve compared to a VDS-3 oil.

The net result is that after 100 hours you will have an oil that is perfoming more closely to new oil, which in my book counts as a benefit.

My observation would be: Are we not allowed to progress? Develop better oils that do a better job than the older ones? Why not use the best product that is available?

dv.

 

[Peanuts]

I understand the point you are putting over, however what I attempted to say on an earlier post was this. VP decide from testing an engine to recommend a VDS oil and that at 100 hours it requires to be changed. A few years down the line and new oils are developed and we are now on a VDS3 standard, a far better oil than the original VDS and as you state at 100 hours is almost as good as the day it was originally poured into the engine, and the manufacture now recommends that you use their new oil VDS3 for that particular engine. So if it is that good why is the service timing still 100 hours to change the oil. The main reason is the metal particulate that is in the oil caused by the moving metal parts of a rotating assembly, thats what controls the time between services not the actual oil itself.