Oil lamps and CO

[OceanSprint]

I've read a lot here about using oil lamps in the cabin, both for light and a bit of warmth. But do oil lamps give off carbon monoxide? Can you leave them on through the night?

 

[daveyw]

CO....... Yes
Leave on all night .......No
http://coleman.custhelp.com/app/ans...sion/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzU1NDA1Ni9zaWQvR0sxM01wbGw=

 

[Mistroma]

Unless my memory fails me, I believe that a visible yellow flame from a lamp is actually caused by incomplete combustion. Soot particles become incandescent due to the heat of combution and the resultant glow is seen as a yellowish flame. Carbon and carbon monoxide are formed from incomplete combustion. However, the CO levels are quite low as long as there is excess oxygen (i.e. the combustion is almost complete). So the flame will be visible when CO levels are still very low, as in a well ventilated space.

The problem with CO is that it builds up in the bloodstream over time. Haemoglobin in the blood picks up oxygen or CO via the lungs and is transported around the body. Carboxy-haemoglobin is much more stable than oxy-haemoglobin and so levels rise over time.

So even quite low levels would be dangerous over time.

This is all schoolboy data remembered from a very long time ago. Perhaps someone with medical knowledge can provide more enlightenment.

 

[Ross D]

Surely they also give off water vapour when the oil burns, not a problem when the cabin is hot but it will condense as the cabin cools overnight.

Ross

 

[daveyw]

Unless my memory fails me, I believe that a visible yellow flame from a lamp is actually caused by incomplete combustion. Soot particles become incandescent due to the heat of combution and the resultant glow is seen as a yellowish flame. Carbon and carbon monoxide are formed from incomplete combustion. However, the CO levels are quite low as long as there is excess oxygen (i.e. the combustion is almost complete). So the flame will be visible when CO levels are still very low, as in a well ventilated space.

The problem with CO is that it builds up in the bloodstream over time. Haemoglobin in the blood picks up oxygen or CO via the lungs and is transported around the body. Carboxy-haemoglobin is much more stable than oxy-haemoglobin and so levels rise over time.

So even quite low levels would be dangerous over time.

This is all schoolboy data remembered from a very long time ago. Perhaps someone with medical knowledge can provide more enlightenment.

+1

 

[Otter]

The CO alarms (we have two combined smoke CO alarms) have been going off all winter whenever we light the Origo burners - are they over-sensitive or is CO produced in quantity by these low heat devices like oil lamps and meths burners?

 

[Searush]

I have left mine on low when I go to the club sometimes as it warms the cabin a little & offers light as soon as I open the hatch. Never felt ill or headachy as a result, but I wouldn't leave it on overnight when sleeping, mainly for fear of running out of oil - it makes a dreadful stink when the wick burns.

 

[VicS]

The CO alarms (we have two combined smoke CO alarms) have been going off all winter whenever we light the Origo burners - are they over-sensitive or is CO produced in quantity by these low heat devices like oil lamps and meths burners?

CO alarms I think you will find will alarm at various concentrations measured over different time periods

Mine alarms at 50 ppm for 60-90 minutes, 100ppm for 10 -40 minutes and within 3 minutes at 300ppm. The instructions should tell you the spec for your alarms .

I would treat any alarm seriously.

 

[oldbilbo]

There are many 'confessions' in the YBW.com archives of serious problems due to this known killer most of us take rather lightly... Here's an example < http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?288854-Close-calls-this-season > See #2.

Quite early in the season I was reading, late at night, aboard - and anchored . It was remarkably cold outside, the Taylors paraffin cabin heater was on, and I was reducing the prior season's stock of single malt and water.

Opposite me on't other side of the cabin was a bookshelf. I noticed a small white plastic box propped up on the books. Numbers displayed on its LED screen seemed to be increasing. Dimly I wondered what the box was for....

I needed a pee, so eventually heaved myself to my feet and clambered onto the deck. While clinging to the shrouds and lowers, admiring the stars, I was struck by how clean and fresh was the air I was now breathing. Eventually the penny dropped!

It took just a few moments to go below and turn off the Taylors heater, which was pumping out Carbon Monoxide as a consequence of an unusually-bright bright yellow flame. The damned thing was trying to kill me! Insidious or what?

It was, I think, a lucky escape. The old brain cells are not yet back to a 'normal performance'....

 

[Contest1]

All hydro carbons are capable of producing CO, insuficient oxygen is just the most common.
A cosy cabin is likly to indicate relativly poor ventilation so leaving a unvented heating unit burning when settling down, even for a short rest, is a bit like smoking in bed.
Much better to avoid the risk than to hope an alarm will activate and that you will be able to react if it does.

 

[SAMYL]

I have left mine on low when I go to the club sometimes as it warms the cabin a little & offers light as soon as I open the hatch. Never felt ill or headachy as a result, but I wouldn't leave it on overnight when sleeping, mainly for fear of running out of oil - it makes a dreadful stink when the wick burns.

You will not feel anything with carbon monoxide poisoning, either ill or headachy, you just become unconscious and die. To others your face will be bright red, caused by carboxy haemoglobin, and initially you may appear healthy. Even at this stage resuscitation can be difficult as haemoglobin in the blood has a higher propensity for carbon monoxide than it does for oxygen.

You might get some warning with carbon dioxide poisoning, probably breathlessness, but the outcome is the same.

Burning just about any fuel to give light/heat produces these gasses, even when the burners are set correctly, so you cannot and must not take any risk with them.

 

[onesea]

OK Guilty we have been leaving ours on a low light over night.

It has about 1/4 of a liter of lamp oil in it to burn, we have got some ventilation even in winter one hatch is left on the snip. As others have said small enclosed space well sealed no drafts I would not.

Present boat very open design 35' with 4" vent in the top of the cabin, limited fuel I think the threat is minimal.

Awaiting others opinions

 

[Woodlouse]

I had a CO alarm for a short while. The oil lamps never caused it to even flicker, this with ventilation supplied by a three inch port hole. The primus would set the thing off very quickly so I ditched the alarm after a week or so.

 

[Rossynant]

It is first - Ventilation,
then Ventilation,
and Ventilation
Boats are seldom ventilated enough. And everyone seem to try everything to prevent the "drafts". Plenty people died at home in my parts when new, more airtight windows were introduced time ago... Not to mention those suffocating in bathrooms. Which usually have more cubic space than boat cabin.

Provided the device is not faulty main reason for CO being produced is lack of air. Burning flame depletes oxygen fast. Even with no CO produced crew inside can get suffocated with CO2 in high levels - this gives effects that are felt, like headache or dizziness. CO mostly gives no symptoms.

CO poisoning kills brain - even when victim did not feel it really, or if suffering is got out into clean air or administered oxygen quickly his brain will be damaged in some extent. Permanently or at least for years to come... Damage develops for some time after exposure, a few weeks even. May be just some IQ lost (or not just some ) but may cause very serious effects too, in some aspects effect similar to stroke, paralysis included, but damage is more widespread. Mechanism of this is complex, there are some longer effects going on for a week or so after actual poisoning, similar to inflammation or autoimmune attack on nerve tissues, myelin covers etc. Not that I recall at the moment.

Any soot visible in lamp glass or on pots on cooker means incomplete combustion - CO is produced.

Heaters with no chimney, like those "catalyst" (somehow I've seen some lately) or a cooker used for heating - are killers.

Heater with chimney still needs a lot of fresh air provided and good draft is essential - not always happens. Fan equipped are safer.

 

[mikhalis]

Back in last year's December frosts I spent 6 days in the Lakes on a 21'er. A hurricane lamp was kept burning most of the time, even a few nights when I fell asleep with it on low. It was hanging from the main hatch which was kept open by an inch or so. With just this lamp going, the Carbon Monoxide alarm kept quiet. Similarly the alarm would stay silent if I just had my old meths stove going on the step inside. If I had both the lamp and the stove going at the same time and not enough ventilation it would only take a few minutes before the CO alarm started sounding. I don't have any gas onboard or even 12V at the moment, let alone shorepower or diesel, so all my heating and lighting has to come from a combination of meths, paraffin, candles, AA batteries and wind-up LED torches. It's a question of balancing the flames with safety. I really don't like gas but know that liquid fuels and carbon monoxide are probably a more real danger. The temptation in winter is to just push things a bit too far and without an alarm that nice cosy sleep could well be your last. Have 1) a safe location for the lamp/stove, 2) decent ventilation, 3) a CO detector or two and 4) to extinguish it before turning in for the night and paraffin and meths can be fine. Sure that a lot of us often break #s 3 & 4 but we're still here. Break #s 1 or 2 and we might not be! As for the effectiveness of the hurricane lamp for heating, it still didn't stop the condensation inside turning to ice or the water freezing in the bowl.

 

[Rossynant]

On heaters - something gogle brought, much better explanation that I could say in English:

"Chimneys only work if the hot gas inside is sufficiently lighter than the surrounding air to create an upward draft. In cold weather the temptation is to close all ventilation hatches and portlights that face upwind.

With all the remaining vents and cowls facing downwind, the main hatch open and also acting as an exhaust, the pressure within the boat can be lower than that outside, and may be sufficient to reverse the flow of fumes in the chimney. The carbon dioxide will then gradually replace the oxygen in the cabin, and go on to produce carbon monoxide."

Now You have it.
http://www.sailboat-cruising.com/boat-cabin-heater.html

 

[Otter]

Is it better to have the combustion air for an Eber drawn from inside or outside? If drawn from inside does that reduce the air pressure and not help or provide circulation which does help?

 

[Rossynant]

This is for cars, but...
" • Combustion air intake
– The air for the heater combustion chamber must not be sucked in from the passenger compartment of the vehicle.
– The air intake must be arranged or protected in such a way that it cannot be blocked by other objects.
• Exhaust system
– The exhaust outlet must be arranged so as to prevent any penetration of exhaust fumes into the vehicle interior through the ventilation system, warm air intakes or open windows.
• When the heater is to be installed in vehicles not subject to the German Ordinance for the Registration of Motor Vehicles (StVZO), for example ships, the specially valid regulations and installation instructions for these special applications must be observed.
• Installation of the heater in special vehicles must comply with the regulations applying to such vehicles."
(Directive 2001/56/EU)
Will look for more, just a minute ...

For boats:
• The combustion air must not be drawn from any of the accommodation areas.
• The position of the combustion air must not allow exhaust fumes or flammable vapour to be drawn in.
• If a combustion air hull fitting is used ensure water ingress is not possible at any time.
• The combustion air inlet must not be restricted or blocked at any time.
• The combustion air inlet must be drawn from a neutral pressure area.
If combustion air is to be taken from an engine/machinery space, please ensure it is adequately vented and that the area will not be pressurised or under partial vacuum when the engine is in use or ventilation fans are running.
If it is to be taken directly to an external hull fitting ensure that it is positioned with regard to the same conditions as required for the exhaust hull fitting

Hope this answers the question...

http://www.eberspacher.com/download...f_ebuk/hydronic_d4-d5_marine_heater_22298.pdf

 

[Otter]

Understood but seems starnge - OK to come from the engine compartment (like ours is) but that in turn draws air from the accomodation areas.

 

[prv]

Understood but seems starnge - OK to come from the engine compartment (like ours is) but that in turn draws air from the accomodation areas.

They're probably assuming the engine space has its own air intakes, as on motorboats.

Pete