Oil for a Volvo 2030

With reference to the original question,

The recommended oil in user manuals for Volvo Penta 2030 from both years 2002 and 2004 is:

Oil quality VDS–2
ACEA E5,
API CH-4
Viscosity at –5deg. - +50deg.C SAE 15W/40, SAE 20W/50
 
Tranona said:
You have to remember that they are in the business of selling oil, and selling you the most expensive oil they can, particularly synthetic.

Their market is automotive, NOT industrial or marine. Read their marketing material again - where does it refer to industrial engines? There is no logical need for synthetic oils designed for high speed, high output engines to be used in low speed, low output industrial engines. The engine manufacturers do not recommend them and users who do really high hours do not use them. The lubrication requirements and duty cycles are very different from automotive engines.

I am surprised that somebody who claims a scientific background has so much difficulty in grasping these basic points.
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Dear Mr Tranona

Your doubts about the use of synthetic oils for marine applications can be responded by
https://www.exxonmobil.com/en/marine/technicalresource/marine-resources/synthetic-marine-lubricants
You are claiming that our marine engines are similar to low speed industrial engines.
This is not correct because Four-stroke engines are classified as medium-speed or highspeed engines. And medium-speed engines run in the speed range of 200–800 rpm.
Obviously our usual Volvo or Yamaha engines are neither low speed engines nor medium speed engines.
On the other hand high-speed engines are similar to commercial-vehicle engines running in the 1,000–5,000-rpm speed range and are often found on our sailboats, harbor craft, ferries, patrol boats, fishing boats and others.
High-speed engines like our usual engines, as you said benefit from the use of fully synthetic engine oils, which, relative to mineral oils, can provide improved wear protection, lower volatility, higher viscosity index and better thermal and oxidative stability.
 
Chanquete said:
Hello Paul
Yes I read the Cox aricle.
But I have my doubts.
As a researcher in fluid dynamics I prefer to follow the advices of Shell and other oil companies with important research laboratories.
Click to expand...

I was employed by Shell for 30 years, 20 of them in Research. For most of this time I was in Lubricants Division. I do not claim to be a lubricant designer but I did pick up a few hints during that period.

Not all that long ago Shell produced an engine oil for the leisure market, although I suspect it was aimed more at mobos than yacht auxiliaries. Called Rotella R I think, it seems to be withdrawn now, but when available it was a mineral 15w-40 with low TBN, just as I say in my articles.

Many people make the mistake of reading automotive information provided by oil manufacturers and assuming this can be directly applied to yacht auxiliaries. This is nonsense of course. Many people on these forums use raw-water cooled engines that run very cool, and moreover run them for very brief periods to exit their berths, upon which they sail. Many use indirectly cooled engines in the same way. Some run engines for longer in the course of cruising, but generally at around 2000 rpm. These engines are all relatively low powered, around 30 - 35 BHP per litre. In contrast, the expensive synthetic based lubricants are firmly aimed at motorway driving(or racing) for long periods at high power outputs, 60 - 100 BHP per litre or much higher. As my articles say, the base lubricant in itself is not a problem, they are hydrocarbons, although the properties of PAO are remarkable. The big difference lies in the additives, which may well be incompatible with the modest driving conditions of yachts.

It is surely significant that Shell still produce Shell X-100 oil for classic cars. If synthetic lubricants were universally excellent they would surely have ceased production. In fact Shell produce a wide range of non-synthetic lubricants for more moderate use, not necessarily much cheaper than synthetics. Oils need to be tailored to their intended application.
 
vyv_cox said:
....
It is surely significant that Shell still produce Shell X-100 oil for classic cars. If synthetic lubricants were universally excellent they would surely have ceased production. In fact Shell produce a wide range of non-synthetic lubricants for more moderate use, not necessarily much cheaper than synthetics. Oils need to be tailored to their intended application.
Click to expand...

Not really, the X-100 series are low detergent oils.
These are often favoured for vintage vehicles with no full-flow oil filter.
I'm not aware of boat engines with no filter being germane to this discussion.
 
vyv_cox said:
..... In contrast, the expensive synthetic based lubricants are firmly aimed at motorway driving(or racing) for long periods at high power outputs, 60 - 100 BHP per litre or much higher........
Click to expand...
In motorway driving, my 2 litre diesel is doing about 60 mpg. Clearly it's not putting out anything like 60BHP per litre.
 
reeac said:
A digression but is that engine from an XK8? They look like the original plastic chain tensioners which were famous for cracking. Changed mine for the latest metal ones at 95,000 miles although they actually looked like new. Always fed synthetic oil ....currently Castrol Edge Professional 5w30.
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Well spotted Reeac! :)

The photo was taken immediately after removing the cam cover. The tensioners are not the actually original but a 2nd generation which was used as a replacement in the late 90s. They appeared to be in perfect condition but I replaced them anyway with the latest 3rd generation which, as you say, are completely metal.

I suspect that you are correct that XK8 engines which were run on synthetic oil right from the start probably didn't suffer from any of the friction-related gremlins that made early XK8s notorious. However, as synthetic oil was not recommended by Jaguar it is not usual to find XK8s that have been run on synthetic as any owner who had their Jag serviced at the dealer would only get mineral oil unless took their own oil along to the garage as I did.

This is a photo I've posted before:

IMG_4668.JPG


This was a 4-cylinder engine which had been overheating badly due to a coolant leak and had been run on mineral oil which had not been changed for around 50k miles as far as I could ascertain. The mineral oil carbonised until such time as the oilways became blocked and the engine then seized. I'll now make a huge leap of faith, but based on 50 years of engine experience, and suggest that if this engine had been using synthetic oil it would still be running now. Yes, the bearings would be beyond their wear limits such that the engine would be knackered but it would still be running.

If I'm even half right about that, then I would suggest that the case is proven for the use of synthetic oils in all i/c engines designed in the last 20 or 30 years provided that the viscosity spec is correct and the price is comparable.

Richard
 
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vyv_cox said:
I was employed by Shell for 30 years, 20 of them in Research. For most of this time I was in Lubricants Division. I do not claim to be a lubricant designer but I did pick up a few hints during that period.

Not all that long ago Shell produced an engine oil for the leisure market, although I suspect it was aimed more at mobos than yacht auxiliaries. Called Rotella R I think, it seems to be withdrawn now, but when available it was a mineral 15w-40 with low TBN, just as I say in my articles.

Many people make the mistake of reading automotive information provided by oil manufacturers and assuming this can be directly applied to yacht auxiliaries. This is nonsense of course. Many people on these forums use raw-water cooled engines that run very cool, and moreover run them for very brief periods to exit their berths, upon which they sail. Many use indirectly cooled engines in the same way. Some run engines for longer in the course of cruising, but generally at around 2000 rpm. These engines are all relatively low powered, around 30 - 35 BHP per litre. In contrast, the expensive synthetic based lubricants are firmly aimed at motorway driving(or racing) for long periods at high power outputs, 60 - 100 BHP per litre or much higher. As my articles say, the base lubricant in itself is not a problem, they are hydrocarbons, although the properties of PAO are remarkable. The big difference lies in the additives, which may well be incompatible with the modest driving conditions of yachts.

It is surely significant that Shell still produce Shell X-100 oil for classic cars. If synthetic lubricants were universally excellent they would surely have ceased production. In fact Shell produce a wide range of non-synthetic lubricants for more moderate use, not necessarily much cheaper than synthetics. Oils need to be tailored to their intended application.
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I appreciate your clear and well-founded concepts.
You highlight the most important design factor that differentiates automotive engines from marine engines: Its Power per liter cylinder displacement.
Although the power per liter of the automoviles is much greater than that of the marine auxiliary engines that we normally use, it is necessary to bear in mind that most street vehicles do not operate at full power at all times, for example in normal urban traffic.
A power demand of 30 to 40% is a good estimate in those cases. And our motor oils have that in mind.
However, our marine engines in themselves with a low order of HP per liter of displacement seldom operate at more than 70% of its power.
That confirms the difference in power demand per liter between marine and automotive engines that you highlited
 
Chanquete said:
I appreciate your clear and well-founded concepts.
You highlight the most important design factor that differentiates automotive engines from marine engines: Its Power per liter cylinder displacement.
Although the power per liter of the automoviles is much greater than that of the marine auxiliary engines that we normally use, it is necessary to bear in mind that most street vehicles do not operate at full power at all times, for example in normal urban traffic.
A power demand of 30 to 40% is a good estimate in those cases. And our motor oils have that in mind.
However, our marine engines in themselves with a low order of HP per liter of displacement seldom operate at more than 70% of its power.
That confirms the difference in power demand per liter between marine and automotive engines that you highlited
Click to expand...

30% of rated power is not a good estimate for a car engine.
My car tells me it has averaged about 46mpg at an average of 42mph. It spends half its driving time doing very little and probably averages 20 or 30 HP the rest of the time. It spends only a small percentage of its use at more than 2/3 rpm. Thats a notionally 150bhp car.
Whereas sailing boat engines are generally driving the boat at half power or more for hours at a time.
 
jdc said:
Good grief - this is expensive. Even fully synthetic oil to CJ-4 should be only around £2.10 a litre including VAT. Go to an agricultural oil supplier and buy a 20 litre drum - it'll pay you back soon enough.

For instance http://www.midlandslubricants.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/10w40-Engine-Oil.doc is £1.75 per litre ex VAT.
Click to expand...
I find that oil cost isn't significant compared with other costs whether in boats or cars. In the case of cars my two non-classic cars each use around £600-700 worth of fuel per annum so a saving of £25 per oil change isn't a big deal. Neither has ever needed any topping up with oil.
 
lw395 said:
30% of rated power is not a good estimate for a car engine.
My car tells me it has averaged about 46mpg at an average of 42mph. It spends half its driving time doing very little and probably averages 20 or 30 HP the rest of the time. It spends only a small percentage of its use at more than 2/3 rpm. Thats a notionally 150bhp car.
Whereas sailing boat engines are generally driving the boat at half power or more for hours at a time.
Click to expand...

I coincide with you lw!
The point is that a higher hp per liter per se is not a decisive argument for differencing auxiliary marine engines from automobile engines.
Because as you say usually only a small percent of the available power is used.
And our automotive oils cope with it.
Therefore I dont see a huge difference between oil requirements for cars and our sailboat engines
 
The big difference is peak rpm
My car revs faster and has a long stroke.
Acceleration on the big end must be nearly 3x that of a Yanmar.
So the oil needs better film strength.
 
RichardS said:
Well spotted Reeac! :)

The photo was taken immediately after removing the cam cover. The tensioners are not the actually original but a 2nd generation which was used as a replacement in the late 90s. They appeared to be in perfect condition but I replaced them anyway with the latest 3rd generation which, as you say, are completely metal.

I suspect that you are correct that XK8 engines which were run on synthetic oil right from the start probably didn't suffer from any of the friction-related gremlins that made early XK8s notorious. However, as synthetic oil was not recommended by Jaguar it is not usual to find XK8s that have been run on synthetic as any owner who had their Jag serviced at the dealer would only get mineral oil unless took their own oil along to the garage as I did.

This is a photo I've posted before:

IMG_4668.JPG


This was a 4-cylinder engine which had been overheating badly due to a coolant leak and had been run on mineral oil which had not been changed for around 50k miles as far as I could ascertain. The mineral oil carbonised until such time as the oilways became blocked and the engine then seized. I'll now make a huge leap of faith, but based on 50 years of engine experience, and suggest that if this engine had been using synthetic oil it would still be running now. Yes, the bearings would be beyond their wear limits such that the engine would be knackered but it would still be running.

If I'm even half right about that, then I would suggest that the case is proven for the use of synthetic oils in all i/c engines designed in the last 20 or 30 years provided that the viscosity spec is correct and the price is comparable.

Richard
Click to expand...


Anyone remember this?:




:D
 
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