Oil filters

[BobnLesley]

The filter I referred to with the Volvo label attached was an M77, the box it was in was marked M77 as was the filter itself. While I can conceive of circumstances where Mann or similar may be manufacturing 'one offs' for Volvo or similar, I can't see why they would mark/package them to match one of there 'standard' offerings; at the very least that could lead to confusion and errors in their dispatch department.

 

[Moodysailor]

I'll try to answer a few comments in one post - apologies if I've missed anything relevant.

Volvo or whoever may have specified a slightly different area of filter paper with a slightly different pore size.
Is it really going to keep the oil cleaner than a filter spec'd by every other engine manufacturer?
Who can say whether a slightly different filter might give better protection?

The engine manufacture sets the standard, not the filter maker, the standards are determined through years of experience, hundreds and thousands (sometimes millions) in R&D, and a combination of destructive and non-destructive testing. It is this reason that proprietary standards exist. They also exist to prevent pattern parts. Certain things like non-return valves, filter size and layout, material may be restricted to only the engine maker. I work for a company now who makes a cleanable filter for an engine manufacturer and we are prohibited under our supply agreement from providing any technical information, spares or part numbers for anything fitted on their engines.
Everything has a consequence, and a cost. You are right that there might be an aftermarket filter that provides better protection - if you find one then use it. The engine manufacturer has to strike a balance between perfect engineering and commercial affordability. This is not a hidden fact.

You are correct, Volvo MAY have specified a different filter paper and pore size. But pretty unlikely. ICE engine lube and filtration is hardly a new science, we have been at it for over 75 years. One could say the filter makers are ahead of the manufacturers in filtration requirements. Certainly the guys at Crossland gave advice to the motor industry on oil and fuel filtration.

Actually, I would argue against this statement. ICE lube filtration may not be new, but engine technology has moved on significantly and this has forced huge development in the area of lubrication for emission, performance and longevity reasons. To use your example of Volvo, they have different oil types for their different generation engines. The newer oil types are designed for the much more demanding requirements of the common-rail diesel engines with hydraulic valve trains. The filters are equally both more complex and higher performing. As legislation and consumer expectation increases, so does the technology that is required to meet these - and lubrication is not exempt from this. Even the oil testing labs (I know because our company has one) have had to invest in more precise equipment to test new types of oils.
You are correct that filter makers collaborate with engine manufacturers and advise them - one part of our company is in filtration and does a lot of work in collaboration with a number of engine makers on very large commercial vessels - but they ultimately decide the standards for their equipment.

The filter I referred to with the Volvo label attached was an M77, the box it was in was marked M77 as was the filter itself. While I can conceive of circumstances where Mann or similar may be manufacturing 'one offs' for Volvo or similar, I can't see why they would mark/package them to match one of there 'standard' offerings; at the very least that could lead to confusion and errors in their dispatch department.

I have definitely seen this on older engines where the cost of maintaining proprietary standards is so high that they often sell or move the rights to the filter maker in exchange for some other benefit. So in your case, I don't doubt or disbelieve this at all and have seen it myself. Anyone who has pulled a VP 2000 series oil filter out of a box from a few years ago probably saw an orange one at some stage....
This usually happens on engines that are past the mandatory requirement for manufacturer supported spares (usually 10/15 years). Some engine makers keep the proprietary rights for longer, this is usually when there are a lot of those engines in the market (engine designs that cover marine, automotive & / or commercial) so the value in genuine spares is significant.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

f you have the Fleetguard number for the filter required, the first link should suffice, otherwise some info may be gleaned from the other links,
Cross Reference Search | Fleetguard Filters
Fuel filter cross reference
Cross Reference Tables - CLR Marine
COMPLETE LIST OF OIL FILTERS

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Volvo , Beta, Yanmar etc., do not manufacture filters. Their branded filters are bought from the major automotive filter manufacturers, sometimes with the their brand logos incorporated at the manufacturing stage, sometimes with the manufacturers' branding obliterated with spray paint and the relevant engine manufacturer's brand and part number applied as a self-adhesive label.
The equivalent for the primary fuel filter on my VP D1-20 is a Vetus WS180FE, or a Mahle KC88. Previously I used a Mann-branded version. The secondary filter I am currently using is a Mann WK815/80 and the oil filter is a Mann W713/9. I also have a spare for this, branded Blueprint ADT32112. I buy them all at my local motor factors'.

 

[Moodysailor]

Volvo , Beta, Yanmar etc., do not manufacture filters. Their branded filters are bought from the major automotive filter manufacturers, sometimes with the their brand logos incorporated at the manufacturing stage, sometimes with the manufacturers' branding obliterated with spray paint and the relevant engine manufacturer's brand and part number applied as a self-adhesive label.
The equivalent for the primary fuel filter on my VP D1-20 is a Vetus WS180FE, or a Mahle KC88. Previously I used a Mann-branded version. The secondary filter I am currently using is a Mann WK815/80 and the oil filter is a Mann W713/9. I also have a spare for this, branded Blueprint ADT32112. I buy them all at my local motor factors'.

Your opening statement is not disputed - the point that has been well made is that the filter makers, or any pattern parts are not always able to replicate the standards or proprietary requirements set by the engine manufacturer. I cited a few real life examples in my posts.

Anyone is free to purchase what they want for their engines - I'm not precious either way. My only objection was to the reference of OEM parts being the "same" as pattern parts, when I know for a fact that this isn't always true. I also know for a fact that sometimes it is - and it is this uncertainty which sends me to my local Perkins dealer for genuine filters for my 50yr old Perkins each season. The price is not so unbearable that I can't afford to go to the pub and complain to my friends about it

 

[rotrax]

Just up the road from where I write this was, for years and years, the Esso research site.
Being involved in the Motor Industry at the BLMC Service School at Cowley and later Kawasaki I knew and dealt with scientists and engineers there.
Most manufacturers used their facilities rather than tie up in house testing.
One member of the VMCC who worked there told me they were doing tests to see why the Ford Pinto engines wore out the cams and followers so fast. They had a dozen test rigs and each engine was started, run for a few minutes, allowed to cool and run again.
This found the issue and allowed Ford to sort it.
Crossland filters used them now and then too.

 

[oldgit]

I am currently talking to Baldwin Filters USA to asertain the micron size of the fuel filters I use on my Yanmar.

Just out of pedantry . The Baldwin equivalent of the VP 471034 (£23.00) oil filter is selling at around £7.00 at the moment.
Vast difference in price.
Possibly down to two things , the size of the USA market generates remarkable volume cost savings, or perhaps somebody wants to break into european market at a loss.
Perhaps we in UK are addicted to brands ?

Must have used just about every brand of after market oil filter (except VP) in Mercruiser/Perkins/ Volvo Penta petrol and diesel engines, twins and singles over the last 30 + odd years.
Mostly logging up around 100-150 hours PA.
One pair of engines doing 1000 hours. another pair 1200 hours in my ownership,each engine.
One pair of engines had well over 3000 hours on the logs and still going strong when sold..
Cannot recall a single issue regards oil pressure or other problems on any engine with aftermarket filter or oil.

 

[Moodysailor]

Just out of pedantry .

The Baldwin equivalent of the VP 471034 (£23.00) oil filter is selling at around £7.00 at the moment.

"Mann" indicate the all important pressure valve opens at 1.2 Ibs. ?.
Can not find any trace of the pressure on either the Volvo Penta or Baldwin.
Vast difference in price.
Possibly down to two things , the size of the USA market generates remarkable volume cost savings, or perhaps somebody wants to break into european market at a loss.
Perhaps we in UK are addicted to brands ?

Once again for posterity - it's an equivalent - not the same.

It's like saying the Rolls-Royce knock-off you can buy in some countries is cheaper than the one you buy in the UK, or the supermarket brand cereal is cheaper than the Kellogs version.

Equivalent is not the same as identical - so you are not comparing the prices fairly. I am not defending manufacturer markup (I do actually have a different view to most on this but won't go there) and I'm not saying that one is better or worse than the other. But comparing an OEM brand with a pattern part is inaccurate and unfair.

 

[oldgit]

But comparing an OEM brand with a pattern part is inaccurate and unfair.

Most would assume, probably correctly, that the after market item could made to less stringent standards and could made with poorer quality materials as suggested by the price.

 

[NormanS]

My 30 year old naturally aspirated engine doesn't care about the markings on the filter, as long as it filters out any dirt from the oil, which is all it's required to do.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Surely all the products of these filter manufacturers all over the world have to comply with standards in the markets in which they are sold?

 

[rotrax]

Something that might interest some on here is the fact that all UK built Ford power units from the mid 60's on used, as initial fill, reclaimed oil from the centrifuge at Belper, run in its last days by the Silkolene oil company.

Ford found that as oils improved bore glazing became more common. The use of this 'second hand' lubricant allowed the pistons and bores to run in. The proper stuff was used after the first oil change, often, in those days at 500 miles.

I understand and to some extent agree with Moodysailor. The filters may not be exactly the same.

On the other hand, our simple and low stressed - in yachts anyway - diesels are pretty old tech. Only significant changes in 60 years has been the addition of turbo's and common rail fuelling. More modern machinery and materials have allowed closer internal tolerances during design and build.

They all have, in common, a sump, oil galleries, an oil pump and pressure relief valve and a filter.

The filter may or may not have an internal bypass valve to allow oil flow if it becomes totally blocked. This feature can have value, but not, I suggest, for our over serviced and by comparison to commercial vehicles, gently used power plants.

I suspect the filter makers have the requirements of successful oil filtration covered. They, in collaboration with manufacturers, designers and the oil companies have produced filters that are trouble free in service and do a great job.

I can only remember two instances of filters failing mechanically, one caused by a siezed oil pressure relief valve, the other by a far more unusual cause. One, a BMW motorcycle burst the filter at the body/threaded end cap joint. It transpired that it was running a heavy grade of oil, had been kept outside in minus 6 C tempretures and had a stuck relief valve.
Upon the owner getting his wife to tow start him the filter burst.

The other, a Harley Davison motorcycle burst two filters, relief valve OK.

It was not until the oil pump drive gear failed some time later with an almighty shriek that I found the crankpin had been changed in Paris six years previously and the hollow mainshaft that carried the oil fron the pump to the big end bearing - rolling element bearings fortunatly - was the wrong type. The oil feed holes were out of line, effectively blocked solid.

The engine had survived six years light use because the relief valve was reliefing all the time and the 'knife and fork' con rods were revolving in a heavy oil spray, so giving sufficient lube to the bearings and bores.

Harley Davidson had started selling a straight SAE 60 oil. This was in the bike on a cold morning.

As for oil filters of any type failing in use and causing engine damage for any reason apart from neglect, not an instance.

60 years of direct experience. Not always on the tools, but responsible in one way or another for those who were.

 

[Moodysailor]

Something that might interest some on here is the fact that all UK built Ford power units from the mid 60's on used, as initial fill, reclaimed oil from the centrifuge at Belper, run in its last days by the Silkolene oil company.

Ford found that as oils improved bore glazing became more common. The use of this 'second hand' lubricant allowed the pistons and bores to run in. The proper stuff was used after the first oil change, often, in those days at 500 miles.

I understand and to some extent agree with Moodysailor. The filters may not be exactly the same.

On the other hand, our simple and low stressed - in yachts anyway - diesels are pretty old tech. Only significant changes in 60 years has been the addition of turbo's and common rail fuelling. More modern machinery and materials have allowed closer internal tolerances during design and build.

They all have, in common, a sump, oil galleries, an oil pump and pressure relief valve and a filter.

The filter may or may not have an internal bypass valve to allow oil flow if it becomes totally blocked. This feature can have value, but not, I suggest, for our over serviced and by comparison to commercial vehicles, gently used power plants.

I suspect the filter makers have the requirements of successful oil filtration covered. They, in collaboration with manufacturers, designers and the oil companies have produced filters that are trouble free in service and do a great job.

I can only remember two instances of filters failing mechanically, one caused by a siezed oil pressure relief valve, the other by a far more unusual cause. One, a BMW motorcycle burst the filter at the body/threaded end cap joint. It transpired that it was running a heavy grade of oil, had been kept outside in minus 6 C tempretures and had a stuck relief valve.
Upon the owner getting his wife to tow start him the filter burst.

The other, a Harley Davison motorcycle burst two filters, relief valve OK.

It was not until the oil pump drive gear failed some time later with an almighty shriek that I found the crankpin had been changed in Paris six years previously and the hollow mainshaft that carried the oil fron the pump to the big end bearing - rolling element bearings fortunatly - was the wrong type. The oil feed holes were out of line, effectively blocked solid.

The engine had survived six years light use because the relief valve was reliefing all the time and the 'knife and fork' con rods were revolving in a heavy oil spray, so giving sufficient lube to the bearings and bores.

Harley Davidson had started selling a straight SAE 60 oil. This was in the bike on a cold morning.

As for oil filters of any type failing in use and causing engine damage for any reason apart from neglect, not an instance.

60 years of direct experience. Not always on the tools, but responsible in one way or another for those who were.

I bet we could spin a yarn or two.... The first company I worked for, Sabre engines I did a lot of work with the Ford Dover engines as we used those for the Sabre marine engines. A few good stories there....

There are a couple of misconceptions in your post though - firstly that marine engines are lightly used. This maybe correct from an 'hours run' perspective, but actually (and I worked with an engine manufacturer on a study for this) from a % of engine load view, marine engines spend far more total time at full throttle than most commercial engines, and leisure engines have a much higher power rating than those rated for continuous use. The combination of that, plus the short-cycling means that the oil stress in a leisure marine engine can be higher than other applications. The view that it is sacrilege to change oil when it is still visually clean does not tell half the story.

The other one is the relevance of the closer internal tolerances. This again places a higher demand on the effectiveness of lubrication as the oil has to be resistant to shear and foaming under high loads, across a variety of temperatures. It must also effectively trap any dirt and release that into the filter in order to continue working. Oil in modern engines forms part of the emission control system, and the drive for greater power, higher efficiency, lower emissions and longer service intervals means that it is really important to have a good quality, high performing lubrication system.

The above comments are just general engineering observations and and are not directly related to the thread, apologies for the drift.

 

[rotrax]

There are a couple of misconceptions in your post though - firstly that marine engines are lightly used. This maybe correct from an 'hours run' perspective, but actually (and I worked with an engine manufacturer on a study for this) from a % of engine load view, marine engines spend far more total time at full throttle than most commercial engines, and leisure engines have a much higher power rating than those rated for continuous use. The combination of that, plus the short-cycling means that the oil stress in a leisure marine engine can be higher than other applications. The view that it is sacrilege to change oil when it is still visually clean does not tell half the story.

Hours run was not on my radar but the comment was based on my use and that of many other cruisers in our two clubs.

Our Yanmar gets a blast doing a 'destroyer' turn in two places we regularly turn in. Our motor sailer has massive windage and both locations have the prevailing wind in the wrong place to do a traditional 'forward/astern/forward/astern on the spot turn. The donk might reach 3200 RPM of its 3600 available. Also, coming alongside it gets full beans in astern to pull the swim platforn alongside the dock/pontoon so I can step off.

When on passage however, even with no sail assistance, the RPM rarely exceeds 2400.

The reason being that fuel consumption at 2400 RPM and below is 3.5 litres per hour or less. Above this RPM it can get to as much as 6 litres per hour.

No brainer. Most of our fellow cruisers use their boats in the same manner.

I will admit to being surprised by the amount of Solent based race boats that travel at full gas everywhere when not actually racing.

I suppose they want to be first into the showers and bar.................................

 

[ghostlymoron]

I wouldn't have thought it made a vast amount of difference using an equivalent filter from a reliable source provided that all the oil goes through the element. Engine manufacturers use fear to scare owners into paying through the nose for their branded spares.

 

[Moodysailor]

I wouldn't have thought it made a vast amount of difference using an equivalent filter from a reliable source provided that all the oil goes through the element. Engine manufacturers use fear to scare owners into paying through the nose for their branded spares.

Having worked for several engine manufacturers over the years, and also for independent dealers, I can tell you that this is completely wrong and so far off the mark. You are free to choose whatever filter you want for your engine, but leave the tin-foil hat at home with the 'fear buying' comments. That anyone stills thinks like this these days shows that some people shouldn't have access to the internet.

There has been plenty of good dialogue on the subject on this thread, so you are welcome to read through and educate yourself.

 

[[70521]]

So £10 per engine a year - 5 pints of Old Hookey

You may want to check that calculation.

Old Hooky 4.6% Bottled Beer - Hook Norton Brewery

 

[rotrax]

It still does not address the fact that the OE lube filter for a 1GM10 is EXACTLY the same as the one specified for a Honda car - Civic IIRC.

I purchased several from a specialist tuning company for a tweaked Civic, direct from Japan, to find the Japanese symbols and roman numbers identical to the boxed one for the 1GM10 in our Hunter 27 OOD purchased from Marine Power in Gosport, the Yanmar dealer.

Whats good for the Goose..................................

When I hear of engine damage, premature wear and other problems with equivilent lube filters I will take note.

Until then, I am happy using reputable ISO compliant aftermarket brands at a fraction of the cost.

 

[oldgit]

.......................surely somebody somewhere has taken at tin opener a selection of filters to reveal what actually lurks within and hopefully popped it onto Youtube.

 

[madabouttheboat]

Just out of pedantry . The Baldwin equivalent of the VP 471034 (£23.00) oil filter is selling at around £7.00 at the moment.
Vast difference in price.
Possibly down to two things , the size of the USA market generates remarkable volume cost savings, or perhaps somebody wants to break into european market at a loss.
Perhaps we in UK are addicted to brands ?

Must have used just about every brand of after market oil filter (except VP) in Mercruiser/Perkins/ Volvo Penta petrol and diesel engines, twins and singles over the last 30 + odd years.
Mostly logging up around 100-150 hours PA.
One pair of engines doing 1000 hours. another pair 1200 hours in my ownership,each engine.
One pair of engines had well over 3000 hours on the logs and still going strong when sold..
Cannot recall a single issue regards oil pressure or other problems on any engine with aftermarket filter or oil.

Where are you seeing the Baldwin filter for £7? The site I use, in-line filters, is usually well priced and they list the B447 at £15.82. Volspec list the original at £20.76 so the saving is less than a fiver per engine. I’m not saying £5 is not worth having, but sometimes even I will bite the billet for an original part, and this would probably be one of those occasions.