Oct PBO - BAVARIA 37, bit of a Slating???

I don't recall saying anything along the lines of "mine is better than yours" (notwithstanding that neither of us has a Bav), indeed I thought I had made it very clear that I was not claiming to have a superior boat, apart from looks (actually I think I DO have a far superior BUILT boat to a Bav, but I didn't claim this originally! my OP was about the Review in PBO which struck me as being more "frank" than previous ones about similar type boats (from large advert buying manufacturers), plus in regard to the finishing - which seemed to me "a bit of a rum deal" /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif


<u>Seadog v Bavaria</u> /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I think as someone has already said Seadogs were originally built UP to a specificiation, not down to a price.............which no doubt accounted for the Builders joining the long list of British Boat builder who went t#ts up /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif, and why Bavaria are still going strong. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif).

I would like to say how well the Seadog sails, but as an indication the owners manual says she can keep full sail up to a F6 /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif, so I suspect she is a little undercanvassed!...........but in any case I AM not the worlds greatest "sailing sailor" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif, but she sails as fast as I need to and I suspect that she would sail a fair bit better with someone who knows what they are doing / she had newer sails and gear / if I cared particularly and if my priority when under sail is not listening to the radio / having a cup of tea and a fag watching the world go by. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I would be very surprised if any Bav did not outsail a Seadog..........unless I was helming the Bav!! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Although when blowing "a hooley" I know which vessel I would prefer to be on.

I completely disagree and resent your comment about the Seadog being a Floating Caravan. For me she is a Floating Shed /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


She fits my sort of boating completely, with sailing ability very much secondary (which is why I have already said I CAN understand why folk buy Bavs).

Today I left St Aubin's harbour on the morning tide, went halfway accross the bay, saw that the forecast was correct and their was little wind, so came back to St Aubin's fort and dropped the Anchor. Fell asleep for a couple of hours. and when I woke up the tide had gone out. So I wandered accross the beach for a couple of Bacons Rolls, a cup of tea and the Sunday papers and then a leisurly stroll around the Fort (said hello to Hermees, who enquired about progress on the Foam filled Avon /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif). And back on board to finish the papers and have another lie down. This boating stuff can be very tiring /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Was going to creep in on the evening tide, but then asked myself, why? - another half hour at anchor won't matter, it's only a 15 minute drive home (I had the car not the moped /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif). And I have already run aground once this year in the harbour entrance /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, so prudence seemed the order of the day, especially with a 39 foot tide.

As I indicated in one of my previous posts "horses for courses".
 
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She fits my sort of boating completely

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Sums it up in one I think... we all have different requirements/expectations and there is a boat for everyone.
 
Re: MAB owners!

I am beginning to wonder where MAB owners live on a scale that ranks acceptable social behaviour, somewhere down on the rung occupied by JetSki drivers, Estate Agents and tabloid press photographers I suspect.

Next month I hope to become the owner of a middle aged sports BMW or Jag XK (disappointing test drive yesterday).

Anyhow once in possession of such a vehicle I would never consider walking up to the owner of a new Seat or Daewoo in a Tesco car park to publicly admonish the unsuspecting owner for buying such a crap car.

Why do MAB owners think they are licensed to be so anti social and vulgar?
 
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the Review in PBO which struck me as being more "frank" than previous ones about similar type boats (from large advert buying manufacturers)

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I noticed that too.
I also noticed (or maybe it's just a feeling) that there a fewer mulit-page Bav adverts since Opal got taken over/rebranded/whatever... .
Maybe this would go some way to explaining the sudden "frankness" - or am I just too cynical?
 
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That's a bit of a harsh thing to say about the poor old Seadog. She was a heavy displacement vessel that was built up to a price. In fact, according to my 1973 Bristows, you could have bought a 37ft Hillyard 12 tonner for the same price.

The Bav, on the other hand, is definitely built down to a price - which I think is the main thrust of the post.

I've got no idea how well or badly the Seadog sailed - maybe David could enlighten us?

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I wasn't trying to be harsh but I was trying to say there were as many snooty comments being made about Seadogs and to an extent also Westerly and Moody back in the '70s as there are about Bavarias now. What I was trying to do and perhaps failed with the written word was to throw the comments back and see how the original poster defended HIS choice that is apparently so perfect.

For what it's worth I quite like the Seadog, at least in Deep Seadog guise (deeper keel and no bilge keels) but it doesn't take away the fact that it's performance would undoubtedly be worse than the Bavaria under sail whilst offering less living space as well, a lose/lose situation.

The assumption that build quality in general was better on older boats and of course from British built boats isn't always correct either IMO, heavier yes but weight doesn't mean quality just heavy. We all remember the good old days - I used to own, and do autocross and rallying in, a 1275 Mini Cooper S and remembered it fondly as superfast and with glued to the road handling, until a friend let me drive his restored one which was worse in reality than a modern Skoda and certainly less reliable. I've had several boats from the 'good old days' and sailed many more and there were some howling defects in all of them as they came from the builders but they were and still are good boats.
 
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The assumption that build quality in general was better on older boats and of course from British built boats isn't always correct either...

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Agreed. I've owned four boats, built variously between 1965 and 1976 - three of which were moulded under Lloyds supervision. Tyler moulded two of the boats and the quality of the mouldings was superb. However the fitting out - by reputable boat builders - was generally very poor and there was much evidence of bad practice. Nor is it true that the lay up of these early boats was always very heavy.
 
The limber holes in question (as in most GRP hulls) being let through the floor grid which is generally foam strips (no strength) laminated over with a GRP 'top hat' (lots of strength).

Accepted paractice (according to JJ and also me) is that the limber holes should be made of lengths of 'pipe' which are laid on the hull surface, the foam laid on top, and the lot sealed in when the top hat lamination goes in. That way no moisture can penetrate the foam stringers.

Clearly it would be unhealthy to allow water to invade the cut edges of the foam as it would prove difficult to dry out given the location.
 
I think it is standard on most AWBs that limber holes are finished only in Gel coat and do not have pipe inserts cast in.

On the 1st boat I bought a Dufour 36 classic it was holding water between mouldings at the rear and when I complained they drilled through some limber holes. In my inexperience i never checked how this post build mod was finished.

I thought David Jerseys original posting a balanced question on whether PBO are being more honest and informative in their boat reviews. Unfortunately it causes so many to criticise one of the biggest selling boat manufactures - yes the rest of the world is totally stupid and only you with an old boat can be right - the directors of Bavaria must be laughing all the way to the Bank! I am also saddened though by others who immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion regarding David Jerseys post and felt that by criticising his personal choice of boat to own it justified their own views.

Can't we all accept that the builders are not idiots and are building what the buying public want at a price that that dictates the quality and content. We all have a choice secondhand, new cheap to new very expensive and there is no one right answer.

It is good though when we get informed comment on the limitations of a cheap boat and I must confess to a human failing in that I have to smile to myself a little when I find a person that has spent a lot of money and the boat has one delivered with a number of defects yet really I should be just sorry for him. Secondhand - well one of my friends for the Cherbourg run is the happy owner of a wooden classic who has spent about 12 months working on when he originally thought he would be sailing this year. Someone has to give him a sail in 2006! I don't think he will later be bothered to post that he prefers his wooden long keeler against a modern Bav in bad weather though as he accepts all the consequences of different choices!!
 
Re: MAB owners!

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Why do MAB owners think they are licensed to be so anti social and vulgar?

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For me their is no direct link. I was "anti social and vulgar" long before I bought the Seadog /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Actually, having had a bit of a think about the comments on this thread, I can see that they may have come accross as vield criticism / snobbishness / whatever about Bav type boats. Not my intention at all. I guess having disclosed on my Bio as having a boat that more fitted in the pigeon hole marked MAB probably didn't help me appear not to have an anti Bav agenda. I also agree with the comments about a lot of old cr#p having been built in the "good old days", so I am really not someone who has any misty eyed view of Temps Passé.

Funnily enough I have always ignored the previous BAV loving / hating threads cos I thought they were pointless, boring and likely to cause arguments / offence. No idea how I ended up STARTING one! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Ho hum /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Anyway, my last post on this thread. probably /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: MAB owners!

David, I took your remarks at face value, and agree with you. I think the review was more honest and laid out good and bad points with more clarity that past PBO reviews. I for one welcome this approach - far too often there is damning with faint praise which only experienced folk will catch and decipher.
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

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Exactly - why is more people on the water a "good thing"?

You don't hear those remarks about more cars on the road /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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A good point. We all cuss and damn the busyness of marinas, locks and so forth, and even more so complain about the prices of said establishments, but besides the simple greed of the businesses themselves, they are pushed up by demand and limited supply.

Do we not enjoy the aspect of sailing that is "getting away from it all"?

Admittedly it seems a rather elitist outlook, but it is equally a truth that we all enjoy some exclusivity and peace.

Likewise, such boats as Bavs are pushing up the average size of boats and the market's expectations of size, which means less space on the rivers, and less development of smaller craft.

I guess we could recycle a few MABs to make way for them and be fair, while of course homogenising the rest of our living environment, after all, we all love MacD's, Cineworld, Phones4U, Fosters, Barratt Homes etc.

Returning to the original point of the Thread though, I haven't read the article yet (am out of the country), but it can only be a good thing that a review is actually a review, otherwise it is just a further advertisement, and when researching a large investment, such as a boat, you want impartial judgement.

As usual, speaking the obvious, and doing it with a large dose of opinion. Hugs, Jem.
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

Yikes!

I only posted my bit about Bavs bringing more people into sailing in order to watch the explosion which followed.

I never expected anybody to agree with me.

I had better be careful in what I say, at this rate I might find that there are people who agree with me on other matters, and down that road lies "conspiracy" and in 2006 in England that could lead to being banged up for 28 days without charge... (or worse)
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

Troll away my man, but I honestly don't believe in filling the world with crabh because some manufacturer can make it cheaply, thus increasing the already excessive consumer culture we have, whilst filling the rivers with...

And as for conspiracies, how about...

Jemola.
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

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"I bet they have allowed a lot of people into sailing"

Exactly.

What a pity.

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So, there might be some families that would love to be out sailing, but the cheapest yacht for their needs is £150-£200k... so no sailing. So along come Bav and make a yacht for less than half the price and fulfils their requirements and can afford it.... so they can get out sailing. Where is the problem in that?

It is snobs that seem to object to the cheaper mass production yachts that allow many people a lot of pleasure. It is these snobs that give the marine industry the view of 'you must be rich to own a boat' to which you don't. Why should there not be cheaper yachts that can attract a wider variety of sailors? Its just shear jealousy/envy IMO.

These type of posts really annoy me! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

"So, there might be some families that would love to be out sailing, but the cheapest yacht for their needs is £150-£200k... so no sailing. So along come Bav and make a yacht for less than half the price and fulfils their requirements and can afford it.... so they can get out sailing. Where is the problem in that?"

Well, I've owned boats and gone sailing since 1969, and have never spent anything like the cost of the smallest Bavaria or Beneteau on a boat.

Not having seventy thousand quid certainly did not stop me sailing. And I fancy I might not be alone.

However, since I agree with AOWYN's remarks about fewer people going sailing being a Good Thing, I am obviously "a snob"!
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

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However, since I agree with AOWYN's remarks about fewer people going sailing being a Good Thing, I am obviously "a snob"!

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That was not the meaning of my post. I was meaning that people that slate the Bavs saying cheap poor production type comments are the snobs... it just seems they dislike the whole principle of them - WHY?

Having the view of more people on the water being a good thing is just a bit selfish really. Why not have more out there and increase the diversity?

I can now see where the view of the rich, posh boat owner stereotype comes from... and one to which I don't want to be included.
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

Crikey, its hardly crowded out there is it?

On a recent crossing to Holland, we saw one.... yes one, other boat on the whole passage after leaving Harwich..... in 24hrs at sea....

I guess if people do choose/have to use busy areas, then the attitude might be a bit different though in fairness....
 
Re: Not another Bav war!!

Well, I will try to answer that carefully and seriously.

Over the past 37 years, I have kept boats in West Mersea, Walton-on-Naze and Woodbridge. Changes are slow, so they almost creep up on us, but when I look, for example, at the river Orwell, today, it is almost lined with moorings for the whole of its length, and it has six marinas on its banks. The estuary is perhaps seven miles long, and has a very busy commercial port at its mouth and another quite busy port at its head.

In practical personal terms. my options for stopping the night in the pretty, quiet, part of the Orwell, something that I do from time to time, as my home river, the Deben, has a bar entrance, are either to enter a marina and pay £21 or so or to pick up a buoy and pay either £6 to Tony Ward at Pin Mill, which I have no problem with, as he is a good bloke and the moorings are his living, or the £10 that I was charged for picking up a vacant buoy off Levington which I was told by a bloke in a grey RIB was "private" - which I do object to.

(I can still anchor at Stone Heaps, under Shotley, but instead of the nightingales in the Pin Mill woods I get the crash of pontoon hatch covers being banged back on ships working at Felixstowe Trinity No 1 berth!)

Years ago, I used to anchor where there are now moorings.

The sheer numbers of boats on the water contribute to bad tempered incidents afloat and tend to keep prices for moorings, etc, high.

On the "diversity" issue - I see very little diversity; just a generous helping of braying Hooray Henries and Yummy Mummies. The only brown faces I see are those of my own family.

There are people who really enjoy sailing and they will continue to get afloat in anything, but there are also people who are just going through a "phase" of "having a boat", and who have the money to spenmd to buy a new one.

I suspect, but do not know, that the people aboard the three boats who motored slowly past me last Tuesday morning whilst we were enjoying a run, in a force 3, in sunshine, with a fair tide! might be in this category, and yes, all three were modern volume production boats. One wonders when, if ever, they actually tried sailing?

If they won't sail with a fair wind and tide, what's the boat for?
 
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