Obviously I would have passed safely ahead had I pressed on . .

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I would say that all any navigation mark ever tells you is where you are on the chart. To make any assumption based on the existence of a navigation mark without reference to a chart and if necessary tide tables is very silly.

... and in fact it would be wrong for a yacht to be in the channel that close to a large ship

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If that's all the nav marks were good for, then they wouldn't need to be painted different colours, would they? I don't see how you inferred from my post, that I would suggest navigating without charts or tide information /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I wouldn't suggest using a buoy to determine your position, until you've confirmed that it is, in fact, in its charted position.

While I agree that small vessels should not be in or near TSS lanes, I don't think they should be excluded from navigational channels. Personally, I'm more concerned about small vessels mucking about in the shallows on my stbd bow, than any vessel, big or small, passing me red-to-red.
 
They still have bifurcation marks in IALA A, don't they? If the channel inshore of the buoy is safe, then it should be marked as such, otherwise it's a gamble.
 
Bifurcation marks are rarely used - I can only think of 2 in the Solent. With the nature of the bottom, there are deep water channels marked by lateral buoys and mostly gradual shoaling outside them. This means in most places you can navigate outside the marks down to, say, the 5m mark

This is also true of the Cardinal buoys. There are 2 N cardinals outside Cowes. Provided you stay S of them you'll be clear of any shipping coming up the Solent into Southampton Water

No gambling involved
 
Well I defer to your local knowledge, but would say that unless you know the area extremely well, the prudent advice is to follow the buoyage.
 
Here's an example where it wouldn't make a lot of difference passing outside the Stb laterals ... ...
P1010022-640.jpg
 
It didn't look like it would help passing inside of the buoys either. Are there two channels, or is the closer buoy needlessly redundant?
 
Harwich Approaches

The Admiralty chart of the Harwich approach channel shows a "Recommended Track for Small Craft" which leaves the port hand marks to starboard over a distance of some seven miles. Gives ample water, and keeps you away from the big boys.
 
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It didn't look like it would help passing inside of the buoys either. Are there two channels, or is the closer buoy needlessly redundant?

[/ QUOTE ] The photo was at low spring tide (0.1m or so), when I took the tender out to survey the channel and the bar. At half tide there would be around 2m more water. The buoys don't really mark the edge of a defined channel, but for pilotage they provide a consistent track. The channel's steep-to sand on the other side, and shallow sloping mussel beds where the starboard marks are set.
 
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Well I defer to your local knowledge, but would say that unless you know the area extremely well, the prudent advice is to follow the buoyage.

[/ QUOTE ]I suppose you could try looking at the chart as well? UKHO spends a lot of time making the charts accurate. If I have a candidate for YM who sails up the 'Big Ship channels' all the time, I have serious doubts about his/her competence.

I have tried to keep out of this debate, but I strongly believe that yachts are often better off staying outside the main channels whenever appropriate in major harbours. Conversely this doesn't mean short tacking up the shallow water when there's no shipping about. Use some commonsense!

Is anyone seriously going to suggest that we should all sail up Southampton Water only using the deep water channel? I note that in my home waters, most of Plymouth Sound is 'outside' the bouyed channels.
 
Commonsense, aha! My early years were spent sailing dinghies so I judged water depths by whether I actually got stuck and had to get up to my knees in mud to push off a bank.

By the time I got round to learning some navigation and putting it to use in a larger boat, electronic charts were coming in. I probably still have saved somewhere the first route I plotted from Chichester to the Hamble via the deep water channel in Southampton Water. I certainly didn't go aground that time but did feel that I needed more than one pair of eyes to monitor the other traffic using the same channel.

Back to the charts, it occurred to me that there was a difference between a marked channel intended for the use of VLCC's etc and the marked channel to Bosham. My Mk II route to the Hamble has, indeed, proved somewhat less stressful.
 
[quote UKHO spends a lot of time making the charts accurate. If I have a candidate for YM who sails up the 'Big Ship channels' all the time, I have serious doubts about his/her competence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that you consider the buoys are only put there for the big ships, yet believe the UKHO is more concerned with the little guy. Unless you can be certain that your chart is based on a recent side-scan survey, it is more than likely based upon spot depths, which are averaged. As you get into shallower waters and certainly outside of marked channels the accuracy and currency of the surveys are even more suspect. Unless you believe the HO is willing to spend its modest budget mapping the shallows? While I don't advocate traipsing about in front of the deep-draught set, I've yet to see any place where big and small vessels can't coexist peacefully. Personally I'd wonder about the competence of anyone who disregards navigation marks.
 
I think anyone who regularly updates their chart portfolio from the N2M must realise that UKHO takes the accuracy of their charts very seriously.

There are a hundred and one different reasons why they may choose to put a buoy at a certain location, and without refering to the chart you can't know why it is there.

Anyone who assumes anything about the safety or otherwise of an area of water purely from the buoyage without reference to a chart is a fool.
 
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[quote UKHO spends a lot of time making the charts accurate. If I have a candidate for YM who sails up the 'Big Ship channels' all the time, I have serious doubts about his/her competence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that you consider the buoys are only put there for the big ships, yet believe the UKHO is more concerned with the little guy. Unless you can be certain that your chart is based on a recent side-scan survey, it is more than likely based upon spot depths, which are averaged. As you get into shallower waters and certainly outside of marked channels the accuracy and currency of the surveys are even more suspect. Unless you believe the HO is willing to spend its modest budget mapping the shallows? While I don't advocate traipsing about in front of the deep-draught set, I've yet to see any place where big and small vessels can't coexist peacefully. Personally I'd wonder about the competence of anyone who disregards navigation marks.

[/ QUOTE ]As my last job was working for the Hydrographer of the Navy, you have me on one of my pet subjects.

The HO do take the trouble to use side scan sonar, and although I haven't got the Southampton Water chart in front of me, I will put short odds on most of it having been surveyed by modern sonar techniques fairly recently, including a lot of the 'shallow' areas. I can assure you that the HO are very keen on providing charting data for small boats as well as big ones.
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Personally I'd wonder about the competence of anyone who disregards navigation marks.

[/ QUOTE ] So would I. Why do you seem to imply that I would ignore them, or encourage others to ignore them? What I am agreeing with is the suggestion that small boats should often navigate 'the wrong side' of the navigation marks. In fact in some circumstances it is often safer for the small craft to do so. For instance in restricted visibility it takes them out of the main channel and ensures that they are neither causing a problem for bigger vessels, nor standing themselves into potential danger. Even in good vis, I use all the channel available to me for my draught, provided I am not impeding a large vessel in the main channel. The 'big bouys' are an instant check as to where I am.

This is a ridiculous argument. You wouldn't be able to sail most of the courses set for Cowes Week on your suggestion that we stay inside the main channel marks.
 
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Is that rock covered at higher tide?

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Yes. I'm not sure by how much, but there's normally little temptation to take that route because it is swarming with small craft trying to catch sea bass.

Mark
 
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Anyone who assumes anything about the safety or otherwise of an area of water purely from the buoyage without reference to a chart is a fool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree entirely - I never said otherwise. Conversely taking the chart at face value without consideration of the buoyage is as foolish.
 
John and Tome,

I hear you and understand what you are saying. For the most part, I agree with you. I would suggest that sailors should not be encouraged to navigate on the hazardous side of lateral and cardinal marks, as a regular matter of course. If there is sufficient sea-room for your particular vessel landward of the marks, and traffic or winds make that a desirable course to follow, then by all means go ahead. Obviously dinghees don't need the depth that a VLCC requires. Again, I would advise navigator's prudence - weigh the level of reliability in your charted information, with whatever information you have (tidal info, advice from the pilot, local knowledge or w.h.y.). I would like to think if a YM candidate did pass on the "wrong" side, they would justify their actions. But I would hardly think someone's competence should be questioned should they choose to follow the marks.
 
cruiser2b, I guess that you're not very familiar with areas like the Solent, which is a big play area for yachts with relatively few hazards, almost up to the edges. One of the very few real hazards to keep clear of is the shipping channel... Therefore to suggest that anyone ought to be navigating inside it sounds a bit odd.

My rule of the thumb though is that it is best to navigate outside the channels marked for ships unless there's a good reason to be in them.
 
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