Oars V Power......

[photodog]

Yesterday PM on the Catterwater... two of our members witnessed a Yacht under power... coming down the Catterwater by PYH... collide midships with a 2 man rowing gig..... cutting the small boat in two.... (apparently the two halves of the gig were impailed across the bow of the yacht..)

Hopefully one of them will drop in and give us more details.....

But, having not witness this myself....

Is a Rowing boat considered to be "Under power" or does a power driven vessel have to give way to a boat being propelled by oars... even though it does not have the constraints of a vessel under sail???


Can a Rowing boat.. with its crew rowing facing aft... ie not looking in the direction of travel.. be maintaining a proper lookout??

 

[colingr]

I think a rowing boat is a vessel powered by machinery, therefore has the same rights or otherwise as a yacht under power. There is no specific definition for rowing boats.

Probably have to duck now as I'm sure someone else will disagree.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Whatever, neither of them was keeping a proper lookout.

Autopilot on the yacht?

 

[Romeo]

Can a Rowing boat.. with its crew rowing facing aft... ie not looking in the direction of travel.. be maintaining a proper lookout??

Yes, if the bowman turns round every now and again to see whats coming.

 

[BurnitBlue]

cutting the small boat in two....

Not with the intention of upstaging you but I witnessed a similar thing when a USA 40 foot power boat sliced a small rowing (fishing) boat in two. The incident was close to the coast of Haiti. The power boat took the fisherman aboard and went into the same harbour I was heading into.

The USA boat was impounded with a massive damage claim for 20 TV sets, a dozen stereos, lots of radar sets, satellite navigation communication equipment that even the QE2 would never find room for. Can't remeber what else the 12 foot fishing boat was carrying but it was apparantly not an isolated claim. Happens all the time I was told.

The power boat was still chained to the dock two weeks later when I left.

 

[Judders]

Is this a troll?

It is a troll isn't it?

 

[colingr]

Do trolls row or sail?

I see them in dug out logs using a human head attached to a thigh bone as a paddle.

Perhaps that's where trolling in a fishing context, comes from?

 

[photodog]

NO! Not a troll... two forumites Saw the accident... and now I am wondering how I should treat a Rowing Boat.... and the buggers never seem to look over their shoulder either!!

 

[LittleSister]

A vessel under oars is NOT a power driven vessel. (By definition in the Regs. Note also they have different lights.)

Except if one is overtaking, the Regulations do not make specific arrangements for crossing situations between a vessel under oars and a power driven vessel, nor between a vessel under oars and a sailing vessel.

This means they are both covered by the other Regs. which require BOTH vessels to keep a good look out and take all measures necessary to avoid a collision, including altering course and/or slowing or stopping as necessary.

This is the situation as set out in the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, and as confirmed by RYA legal department. (I did quote IRPCS chapter and verse on this, and include RYA's confirmation, in a post here about 6 months ago, but don't have this info to hand just now.)

 

[ash12]

there was once someone who drove through the middle of a rowing boat and cut it in half. They then took him to court and the MoBo won because he said how can it be safe if they are facing backwards. Gets me in the mood.

 

[Bajansailor]

I think that the relative speeds of the two vessels concerned should be taken into account.
There have often been times when I am rowing my wee inflatable dinghy between the beach and our mooring and a speed boat (or worse, a jet-ski / wave runner) comes zooming along at high speed.
I keep an eye on where I am going by having a quick glance over my shoulder every few strokes or so, but I cannot row fast enough to be able to get away from the path of an on-coming speed boat, especially if they suddenly change course.

 

[Cornishman]

Sorry for being a bit picky but in this part of the world, and in Devon too I guess, a gig means a pilot gig which has 6 rowers and a coxswain. Smaller boats propelled by oars are either flash boats or skiffs.
Saltash SC is proud to have the Caradon gigs as members who are regular class winners in the World Championships held in the Isles of Scilly in May each year.

 

[colingr]

A vessel under oars is NOT a power driven vessel.

Not quibbling just interested. I had a good look but could not find a definition in the colregs.

In terms of lights they just need a single all round white, just like a small mobo or saily thing.

 

[lw395]

The colregs seem strangely quiet on the subject.
But any boat that manages to hit another amidships is likely to be in the wrong, unless the yacht could prove the rowing vessel shot across its bows in an unpredictable fashion, leaving no chance to stop or alter course.
Rowing boats vary a lot, but the fast ones tend not to change direction very quickly when they have much way on. Slow heavy ones can change course more readily but often move too slowly to get out of anyones way.
The presence of either probably calls for a bit of thought about what is a safe speed.

 

[aquaplane]

On Windermere the Bylaws specify that everyone keeps out of the way of rowing boats, with the exception of the ferries.

A day visitor isn't going to know of the existance of COLREGS (or the bylaws which read more or less the same) never mind know them well enough to apply them. It's best to have the same attitude to the little day boats too, assume they are going to do daft stuff and be ready for them to cut across your bows or stop for a breather in the case of row boats.

Regardless of what COLREGS says, it can't be right for someone to drive through another boat, wether they were keeping a good lookout or not, especially a slow boat that couldn't get out of the way even if they wanted to.

 

[lw395]

On Windermere the Bylaws specify that everyone keeps out of the way of rowing boats, with the exception of the ferries.

A day visitor isn't going to know of the existance of COLREGS (or the bylaws which read more or less the same) never mind know them well enough to apply them. It's best to have the same attitude to the little day boats too, assume they are going to do daft stuff and be ready for them to cut across your bows or stop for a breather in the case of row boats.

Regardless of what COLREGS says, it can't be right for someone to drive through another boat, wether they were keeping a good lookout or not, especially a slow boat that couldn't get out of the way even if they wanted to.

A day visitor to Windermere has no need to know the colregs since they don't apply there!
I agree with you though, common sense (and experience!) suggests rowing boats will often be unpredictable.
I wonder if the yacht in the incident in Plymouth was on autopilot?

On the other hand, I reckon coxing a fast four or eight on a busy river must be pretty nerve wracking at times, with all sorts of craft wandering into their path. How quickly can those things stop?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

A day visitor to Windermere has no need to know the colregs since they don't apply there!
I agree with you though, common sense (and experience!) suggests rowing boats will often be unpredictable.
I wonder if the yacht in the incident in Plymouth was on autopilot?

On the other hand, I reckon coxing a fast four or eight on a busy river must be pretty nerve wracking at times, with all sorts of craft wandering into their path. How quickly can those things stop?

Quicker than you might think, if the cox is on the ball, the speed at practise levels and the crew responsive. The crew are ordered to brace their oars in the water with the blade vertical. But it would be a dodgy manoeuvre at racing speed, and at that speed it would indeed be practically impossible to stop quickly; you'd have to wind the speed down to a level where the "hard stop" command would stand a chance of working without hurting someone!

Eights and fours are indeed slow to turn; the rules of the river in Cambridge take that into account where the "correct" side of the river changes for one short stretch where there is a large bend. They can rotate on the spot, but only if stopped; otherwise, the turning radius is many boat lengths. The rudder is really only for course trimming; major turns are affected using commands to the oarsmen. The rule for the cox is that if you're using the rudder, you've got it wrong.

 

[T_C]

The rule for the cox is that if you're using the rudder, you've got it wrong.

Fred drift I know, but I don't think that is actually the case. I spent many of my younger years coxing eights, fours and pairs. Yes the rudders are very small but in a race situation you do not make course alterations by instructing one or other side to power up or down, they should be at full power as it is.
The trick is to anticipate the course you need to steer, and start adjusting well in advance. I learnt some excellent boat handling skills from that time, even if I did manage to almost plough an eight into a bridge once....

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Fred drift I know, but I don't think that is actually the case. I spent many of my younger years coxing eights, fours and pairs. Yes the rudders are very small but in a race situation you do not make course alterations by instructing one or other side to power up or down, they should be at full power as it is.
The trick is to anticipate the course you need to steer, and start adjusting well in advance. I learnt some excellent boat handling skills from that time, even if I did manage to almost plough an eight into a bridge once....

On the Cam, in Bumps races, the rudder is only used for fine control when about to bump the boat in front. Otherwise, you get bow or two to pull hard (er)! It was permissible for two or bow to slacken slightly. In the early 70s (prehistory, I know), I was strongly enjoined that using the rudder slowed the boat heavily. This was on a winding river course, so using the rudder to steer could involve quite large rudder movements. I'm also recalling mainly wooden clinker eights with a large spade rudder at the extreme stern, not a modern shell with the rudder beneath the hull.

I too learnt good boat-handling skills; including some I doubt I could replicate today!

 

[bbg]

But it would be a dodgy manoeuvre at racing speed, and at that speed it would indeed be practically impossible to stop quickly; you'd have to wind the speed down to a level where the "hard stop" command would stand a chance of working without hurting someone!

Quite right. I recall doing a timed 12 km practice session in a 2 km basin. Of course we were going all-out and turning as quickly as we could. On one of the turns I did something wrong and got catapulted out of the boat with a dislocated shoulder. Ouch.