Not under command?

[Manuel_Hung]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post so my card is behind the virtual bar.
I've just started my day skipper theory and was hoping that someone could clarify the term 'Not under command' for me. I gather that the term means that there is a problem with the vessel and that the rudder/engines e.t.c are not responding. The thing that is really confusing me is how a vessel can be not under command but still making way?
I've got an image in my head of a car with one wheel missing, still trying to drive home.

Many thanks for your help

Mark

 

[davidpbo]

Unlike a car boats rarely just stop when they lose motive power, without the anchoring ability of tyres (car) or an anchor they drift either due to current or wind. They are therefore moving but not under command as there is little control over where they go. If it is the rudder that has failed a similar situation may arise as without the rudder it may be prudent/necessary to cease to proceed unless some other means of steering can be rigged e.g a jury rudder, drogue or something.

If the anchor is thrown out and holds then the situation changes and they are at anchor and should show the correct symbol/lights for that situation.

However I may be wrong.

 

[Reverend Ludd]

Could be a variety of things.
Engine failure is the most obvious one ie drifting.

Welcome by the way

 

[john_morris_uk]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post so my card is behind the virtual bar.
I've just started my day skipper theory and was hoping that someone could clarify the term 'Not under command' for me. I gather that the term means that there is a problem with the vessel and that the rudder/engines e.t.c are not responding. The thing that is really confusing me is how a vessel can be not under command but still making way?
I've got an image in my head of a car with one wheel missing, still trying to drive home.

Many thanks for your help

Mark

You need to look up the definition of 'underway' to see how it all works.

In broad brush terms...

Under way - not anchored, or connected to the bottom or aground or tied to a jetty etc
Making way - engines running and in gear etc
Not under Command - can't take avoiding action as the rudder has jammed etc etc

 

[VicS]

Read the Colregs!

"Not under command" is defined in Rule 3(f)

COLREGS

 

[agurney]

I've got an image in my head of a car with one wheel missing, still trying to drive home.

Mark

More like a car that's been abandoned on a hill without a handbrake but with the children in the back.

 

[oldsaltoz]

A common situation for the NUC lights to be shown is when the crew of a small trawler are sorting on the rear deck.

Auto pilot engaged but no one at the helm.

You will often see small trawlers displaying the NUC signal when revelling between fishing grounds as the helmsman is the only person on deck and the entire crew are below deck resting or sorting/packing and helmsman goes beloe to check the engine room or other activities.

Primarily used to advise other vessels that it will be changing it's course.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The term “vessel not under command” means a vessel which through some exceptional
circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep
out of the way of another vessel.

A fishing boat on autohelm as the crew pack fish and the captain checks the engine would not be an exceptional circumstance, it would be negligent.

A sailing vessel becalmed without an engine is an exceptional circumstance.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

A common situation for the NUC lights to be shown is when the crew of a small trawler are sorting on the rear deck.

Auto pilot engaged but no one at the helm.

You will often see small trawlers displaying the NUC signal when revelling between fishing grounds as the helmsman is the only person on deck and the entire crew are below deck resting or sorting/packing and helmsman goes beloe to check the engine room or other activities.

Primarily used to advise other vessels that it will be changing it's course.

I am not sure your examples would be considered as NUC as at any time a check can be made on the position of the vessel relative to others and avoiding cation taken. A single handed yachtsman with auto helm engaged is not classified as NUC either, again as action to avoid collision can be taken.

If the yachtsman or fisherman were so exhausted that they had to sleep, perhaps that could be considered as NUC.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I've got an image in my head of a car with one wheel missing, still trying to drive home.

Many thanks for your help

Mark

NUC = car with one wheel missing still rolling down the road, cant steer cant stop.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

A common situation for the NUC lights to be shown is when the crew of a small trawler are sorting on the rear deck.

Auto pilot engaged but no one at the helm.

You will often see small trawlers displaying the NUC signal when revelling between fishing grounds as the helmsman is the only person on deck and the entire crew are below deck resting or sorting/packing and helmsman goes beloe to check the engine room or other activities.

Primarily used to advise other vessels that it will be changing it's course.

This does not qualify as NUC. Autonpilot does not mean a skipper can not comply with the other regulations. The reason a trawler may show two vertical reds is if his nets are caught upon an obstruction.

If a trawler was genuinely NUC he would have the same rights and responsibilities as any other NUC vessel.

 

[snowleopard]

revelling between fishing grounds

What a hilarious mental picture that conjures. Is that where pubs called the 'Jolly Sailor' get their names?

Sorry, I'll get me coat.

 

[onenyala]

You cannot be serious !

 

[prv]

A common situation for the NUC lights to be shown is when the crew of a small trawler are sorting on the rear deck.

This does not qualify as NUC.

You're right, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that they show the signals nevertheless.

Pragmatically, if they're going to let the boat run with no lookout and noone at the helm anyway, they might as well turn on the NUC lights while they're doing it so others know to avoid them.

Pete

 

[fisherman]

Welcome Mr. Hung, see how you get a good straight definitive answer right away? If you want to go out later the carers will be round......

 

[ancientsailor]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post so my card is behind the virtual bar.
I've just started my day skipper theory and was hoping that someone could clarify the term 'Not under command' for me. I gather that the term means that there is a problem with the vessel and that the rudder/engines e.t.c are not responding. The thing that is really confusing me is how a vessel can be not under command but still making way?
I've got an image in my head of a car with one wheel missing, still trying to drive home.

Many thanks for your help

Mark

Making way implies some form of propulsion - eg http://www.sailskills.co.uk/colregs/sailskills_definitions-making-way.html

Two real life examples from two of our company's ships in the 70s.

1 North Atlantic gale. Bulk carrier lost rudder control. By centring the rudder and going slow astern the bows blew downwind. The ship rode better (she had been rolling her lifeboats under when lying broadside to the waves according to those on board)

2 Off South Africa. General cargo ship - I was on the bridge for this one. Engine room fire, engine going full ahead and not responding to remote control. No-one could go into engine room. Control not re-established until fire smothered and engines starved of air. Lifeboat problem this time was trying to stop the crew launching them.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

You're right, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that they show the signals nevertheless.

Pragmatically, if they're going to let the boat run with no lookout and noone at the helm anyway, they might as well turn on the NUC lights while they're doing it so others know to avoid them.

Pete

If they failed to keep a look out they would be contravening another coll reg. There is nothing pragmatic about applying the IRPCS. Look out and NUC rules are both very clear.

 

[snowleopard]

When competing in the OSTAR the scrutineers demanded that we carry a set of NUC lights. I don't believe however that 'crew asleep' is a valid NUC state.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... I don't believe however that 'crew asleep' is a valid NUC state.

A case probably could be made for the single hander because no alternative arrangements are possible once sleep has to happen. The vessel can not be commanded, even though it retains full functionality. It is logical that displaying NUC day and night signals would be appropriate.

I believe that the IRPCS are pragmatic because the word "exceptional" allows for a range of possible scenarios i.e. the IRPCS is not prescriptive on this matter. In my opinion single handed, with overnight passages, fits within the exceptional scope.

Of course, Radar and alarms could be used to wake the sleeping single hander, but once again, these devices are not mandatory.

 

[Reverend Ludd]

Primarily used to advise other vessels that it will be changing it's course.

Surely you mean will not be......