Not falling Overboard

[thinwater]

Brent, have you tested this? How did it work?
* I doubt you could hold on to it.
* At 7 knots you have 9 seconds. But you will only have perhaps 20 feet to slip through your hands.
* The boat is not going to round up exactly, it is going to tack and then bear off, maybe jibe, maybe not. You better check what your boat does with the helm left hard over.

 

[reginaldon]

At 19', can you reach the mast from inside the companionway hatch? Likewise can you work the foredeck (e.g. anchoring) from inside the forehatch? IIRC the Fairey Atalanta actually has the forehatch right at the bow for this very purpose.

I am guessing that the sidedecks are narrowest beside the cockpit, how is the climb out of the cockpit in order to move forward?

I would think that very good handholds would be the key safety feature (and non-slip decks), and perhaps a bum-shuffle along the coachroof?

Thanks folks for suggestions - NB: 1) no sidedecks alongside cockpit, 2) small forehatch possibly available, 3}climb out of cockpit is possible but not easy, 4} bum shuffle is the likely way forward, 5) no toe rails. 6) short tether is the way to go.
7) some handholds.
Mind you Shane Acton circumnavigated(using 2 canals) in the Mark 1 boat, leaving Falmouth with no lifejacket, no dinghy, no self furling foresail, but a few years younger and a lot braver!

 

[thinwater]

The answer for a smaller boat I had years ago was to use two tethers. One attached to a hardpoint in the cockpit, the other to a short jackline forward of the mast. By leaving the forward tether on the jackline, it was enough to got from the cockpit to the foredeck. I also used non-standard lengths to make it fit.

 

[mbroom]

I have tried various permutations of safety line, but whatever system we use, the foredeck, being so narrow is impossible to guarantee safety unless the tether is so short as to be almost useless.

 

[thinwater]

I have tried various permutations of safety line, but whatever system we use, the foredeck, being so narrow is impossible to guarantee safety unless the tether is so short as to be almost useless.

Guarantee is a tough word. We are only seeking to improve safety.

What do you have in mind? What are you doing at the bow?
* If it is a furler jam, scoot forward and then sit down. You can tether very, very short and you are below the lifelines. I've done this a few times. It's not bad.
* Anchor came loose on the roller. Same as above.
* Pull down a sail. This is tough. But still, you can often sit or at least crouch. You can also tether very short to the pulpit, prefereably with very little slack, possibly even tension. Yes, you might go over, but with an 1/2-meter tether (no one said you could not double it back) you won't fall so far you can scramble back one.

Some of this is a matter of learning how to work. If you had to perform the same task 40 stories up on a scaffold, how would you do it? That is the way to think. No, you would not walk out into the storm, standing tall, with a 2-meter tether. That would be dumb. You would scoot and tether very short.

Planning is also important. Don't just run up there to do something. Plan before you start.

 

[mbroom]

Guarantee is a tough word. We are only seeking to improve safety.

What do you have in mind? What are you doing at the bow?
* If it is a furler jam, scoot forward and then sit down. You can tether very, very short and you are below the lifelines. I've done this a few times. It's not bad.
* Anchor came loose on the roller. Same as above.
* Pull down a sail. This is tough. But still, you can often sit or at least crouch. You can also tether very short to the pulpit, prefereably with very little slack, possibly even tension. Yes, you might go over, but with an 1/2-meter tether (no one said you could not double it back) you won't fall so far you can scramble back one.

Some of this is a matter of learning how to work. If you had to perform the same task 40 stories up on a scaffold, how would you do it? That is the way to think. No, you would not walk out into the storm, standing tall, with a 2-meter tether. That would be dumb. You would scoot and tether very short.

Planning is also important. Don't just run up there to do something. Plan before you start.

All true of course. But still important to realise that the tether is almost useless on the foredeck to prevent you falling over. Also, getting dragged alongside the bow in a moving boat does not bear thinking about!

 

[Uricanejack]

Why? My boat is 33' overall and the stanchions are 2' high. They give an enormous feeing of security. (……and they are socketed, through bolted with M20 screws and with substantial backing plates).

A rough guess so are mine.
Are you over 4ft tall? If so, you are standing and you fall. You will fall right over them.

It is nice to know the placebo effect is comforting

 

[Tomahawk]

Thats the beauty of a cat. I have 10 feet either side of me when at the mast. In the cockpit everything is to hand.

 

[Uricanejack]

Guarantee is a tough word. We are only seeking to improve safety.

What do you have in mind? What are you doing at the bow?
* If it is a furler jam, scoot forward and then sit down. You can tether very, very short and you are below the lifelines. I've done this a few times. It's not bad.
* Anchor came loose on the roller. Same as above.
* Pull down a sail. This is tough. But still, you can often sit or at least crouch. You can also tether very short to the pulpit, prefereably with very little slack, possibly even tension. Yes, you might go over, but with an 1/2-meter tether (no one said you could not double it back) you won't fall so far you can scramble back one.

Some of this is a matter of learning how to work. If you had to perform the same task 40 stories up on a scaffold, how would you do it? That is the way to think. No, you would not walk out into the storm, standing tall, with a 2-meter tether. That would be dumb. You would scoot and tether very short.

Planning is also important. Don't just run up there to do something. Plan before you start.

The title of the thread was "Not falling overboard"

You hit a couple of nails on the head here. Crawling, Sitting, Tether very short, Don't run, Plan what you going to do.
Jack Lines, Clips Tethers, Harness & Lifejackets come in to play after you fall.

Once upon a time long ago and far far away. I was a watch leader on a 70ft boat sailing offshore. 95% of the time. My role was not to do anything. 95% of my role was to ensure those who were doing, were safe. Particularly on the fore deck. Hanked on sails, halliards at the mast and reefed at the mast. Typical of a big old boat.
5% of the time I went and did it myself. The Skipper took the role of ensuring I & anyone helping me was safe.

Crawl FWD, Up the high side, Sit on my arse, on the fore deck, and holding on, (often to the jackline).

Yes I wore a harness, tether & clipped on. I used to shorten my tether with a knot. Even so most of it was about making sure I couldn't fall. Tie myself on. Tie the sails I was changing on,

It was a long time ago, I was young and stupid enough to think it was great fun. I loved it.

People give all sorts of reasons why you cant use a short tether on the fore deck, Sometimes I intentionally shorted my tether to the point I was tied to the pulpit, or lying on the deck not just sitting and tied on. My plan don't fall off. If the tether is long enough to let you fall off. Its to dam long.

To my mind a harness is more important than a life jacket. So is a good anchor point and tether.
I don't always wear them. Depends on the conditions.

Occasionally, I should have worn a harness, but didn't have one. I did the same sit on my fat arse or lay on the foredeck. To secure the anchor I should have secured before I left.

Despite all my silly risks or times spent on the fore deck or at the mast I have not yet fallen on my tether. Partly because I keep it short. So it wont let me fall.

 

[Uricanejack]

All true of course. But still important to realise that the tether is almost useless on the foredeck to prevent you falling over. Also, getting dragged alongside the bow in a moving boat does not bear thinking about!

Based on my limited experience on a big boat I was on a long time ago to little boats of my own. I disagree. I found a short tether worked well on the foredeck even on my 24ft boat.
Just my opinion if your tether is to long and will allow you to fall overboard. So you are dragged in the water. It is not fit for purpose and you would be better of without it.

 

[KellysEye]

Our furling main on a Benetteau 50 jammed during Antigua Race Week.

 

[lw395]

Based on my limited experience on a big boat I was on a long time ago to little boats of my own. I disagree. I found a short tether worked well on the foredeck even on my 24ft boat.
Just my opinion if your tether is to long and will allow you to fall overboard. So you are dragged in the water. It is not fit for purpose and you would be better of without it.

When you know there is a risk, I find 'holding on like a man who doesn't have any other plan' works pretty well.
It's when you don't know, or forget, there's a risk, that's a problem.
Last time I fell off a foredeck, I was stood there, the boat was on the mooring, then someone rammed us and the boat wasn't underneath me any more.

 

[Brent Swain]

Then what happens?

Then the boat is parked , sails flogging ,and you climb back aboard.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent, have you tested this? How did it work?
* I doubt you could hold on to it.
* At 7 knots you have 9 seconds. But you will only have perhaps 20 feet to slip through your hands.
* The boat is not going to round up exactly, it is going to tack and then bear off, maybe jibe, maybe not. You better check what your boat does with the helm left hard over.

Try towing 100 feet of line at 7 knots, throw a bit of paper overboard,and see how long it takes to get to the end. Gives you lots of time ,and even slowing down the rope will round her up quickly.
Better than nothing left to grab, as you advocate.

 

[mbroom]

Then the boat is parked , sails flogging ,and you climb back aboard.

Even a "parked" boat with sails up at sea will move faster than I can swim, not to mention the difficulties of climbing back on board in waves. Just holding onto a trailing line in these conditions would be difficult..have you tried this in a decent wind?

 

[thinwater]

Try towing 100 feet of line at 7 knots, throw a bit of paper overboard,and see how long it takes to get to the end. Gives you lots of time ,and even slowing down the rope will round her up quickly.
Better than nothing left to grab, as you advocate.

8.4 seconds.

Have you tried it? How did it work?

I'm confused about the "round-up" statement. If I put the helm had over, the boat tacks, bears off, and then may reach off without stopping, depending on sail balance, but it won't just round up. If it simply knocked off the tiller pilot, it depends on the balance; with a chute or reacher it probably won't round up all the way. I'm just sayin' it needs to be tested on the specific boat on a variety for courses and sail combinations.

I've never heard of anyone successfully testing this approach on anything much larger than a dinghy. I believe it does make sense on a dinghy; slower and easier to stop.

 

[Allan]

This is a very interesting thread, long may it continue! One thing I don't think has been mentioned. On most yachts, once in front of the sprayhood, one can hold the hand rails on the coachroof or the mast rigging etc. It is either side of the sprayhood that worries me most. We're considering fitting handles though holes in the canvas and bolted to the frame.
If I buy another small yacht for single handing, I plan to put central jackstays with tethers left attached. I can then attach one to my harness if I need to go forward.
My last boat had a wind powered generator on a strong pole on the stern quarter, which made life safe for peeing over the side.
Allan

 

[TLouth7]

It is either side of the sprayhood that worries me most.

I absolutely agree with this, and additionally dislike the reduced visibility when helming; as a result I don't ever sail with a sprayhood. I do have good oilies though, and don't tend to spend long periods at sea.

Do fixed windscreens tend to be more robust? If so they could be a good site for handholds high up which would be great while exiting the cockpit.

My issue with foredecks is not the narrowness but rather the large space with no good footholds. You end up stepping/climbing a long way down from the windward side of the coachroof to the leeward toe-rail. I see that the current Hugo Boss has a sort of spine running down the centre of the foredeck which might work well (though it is a trip hazard when the boat is flat). Another solution I quite like is the central handrail on lots of pilot boats, though I am not sure how this would work on a small sailing yacht.

 

[mattonthesea]

Even a "parked" boat with sails up at sea will move faster than I can swim, not to mention the difficulties of climbing back on board in waves. Just holding onto a trailing line in these conditions would be difficult..have you tried this in a decent wind?

Off Corfu, we had our boat at anchor while another sailed passed with a fender on a line behind it. I swam over and grabbed it but the first mate hadn't thought to slow the boat down from around 6 kts when I caught the line. I have a lot of experience of holding on to a line in moving water from white water kayaking - we practice a lot. Even knowing the trick of turning on to my back and letting the water shoot over my head while I could breathe in the air gap, it was still an energy sapping experience. After only a few seconds (afterwards I estimated about 10-15) I had to let go. I'd lost all sense of bearings. Work my way up the line to the transom? Forget it!


Consequently, I have short tethers and shuffle like an orangutan when I'm on deck (and I do break this rule)!

 

[Brent Swain]

8.4 seconds.

Have you tried it? How did it work?

I'm confused about the "round-up" statement. If I put the helm had over, the boat tacks, bears off, and then may reach off without stopping, depending on sail balance, but it won't just round up. If it simply knocked off the tiller pilot, it depends on the balance; with a chute or reacher it probably won't round up all the way. I'm just sayin' it needs to be tested on the specific boat on a variety for courses and sail combinations.

I've never heard of anyone successfully testing this approach on anything much larger than a dinghy. I believe it does make sense on a dinghy; slower and easier to stop.

That is why you have to tack the rope when you tack the boat, so it will round up, rather than bear off. I just switch it from one mooring bit to the opposite one. I use a windvane at sea, rather than an auto pilot.