Not enough water to round a mark of the course - protest?

iandwall

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If a course is set such that it contains a mark that cannot be reached by at least some of the fleet (handicap racing), because there is not enough water at the mark due to the tide, can the race committee be protested?

In the case in question several boats ran aground within 3 boat lengths of a mark of the course.
 

lpdsn

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If a course is set such that it contains a mark that cannot be reached by at least some of the fleet (handicap racing), because there is not enough water at the mark due to the tide, can the race committee be protested?

In the case in question several boats ran aground within 3 boat lengths of a mark of the course.

Yes. Colloquially known as protesting the committee, but more accurately as seeking redress. Look at RRS 62.
 

DFL1010

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Almost certainly (although it'd be a request for redress rather than a protest).

The question is whether this was an improper action of the Race Committee (R62.1(a)).
Setting a course such that it was impossible to reach the mark due to insufficient water would be an improper action. However, if there were one (or more) courses that would have allowed them to reach, and some that didn't, and they took the one of the latter options, then this probably would not be an improper action (as there was an option to not run aground, but the boat didn't take it).

Without local knowledge, charts,tidal heights info, etc for the specifics of the case, it's impossible to say conclusively though.
 

savageseadog

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We've had the problem of courses being set to pass permanent navigational marks in water that was too shallow, we spotted the issue before the start and revised courses were set. In the case of laid non permanent marks it's the responsibility of the Race Committee to ensure they are laid in sufficient water for all boats. I would suggest that any boat taking part in a race ensure, before the start, that there will be sufficient water to complete the course if possible.

A more difficult issue is one where the best course between marks is too shallow for some boats. We've had this problem a number of times on the Mersey where the course passes over a sandbank.
 

flaming

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Boats aground within 3 boat lengths I would suggest is never suitable.

Request for redress and if it's more than one boat I'd be amazed if the Comittee did anything other than throw the race out.
 

markhomer

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Defo request redress as flaming suggests ,

As matter of point you cannot protest a r ace committee , though often people refer to seeking redress as this , this in my experience just gets folks backs up , word soon goes thro fleet in hushed tones . Usually race committees that dont know the rules take this as a personal slight and stamp their little feets and go red in face and become very defensive .

I was once scored ocs at an european champs and sought redress , was actually pulled aside by member of race committee upset that i was protesting them ( very disconcerting as obviously they didnt know rules to think i was even protesting ) , i quietly explained i was seeking redress for an action made by race committee that affected my result , took the international jury chair to get through to them , we all make mistakes , redress is system to sort them out .

Ps I was successful and was reinstated .
 
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lpdsn

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Seems to happen in RTIR....

Well known feature of the race. A completely different story if you pay your entry fee for a round the cans race and turn up a few weeks later to find they've laid a course that stops you competing. Bearing in mind that the course is often only announced for a class in the preparatory period, so a bit unfair to expect the tactician to miss the start in order to do tidal calcs for mark roundings.
 

savageseadog

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............................. Bearing in mind that the course is often only announced for a class in the preparatory period, so a bit unfair to expect the tactician to miss the start in order to do tidal calcs for mark roundings.

We always check tidal heights for the duration of a race and make sure we're not going to touch down. It's a habit learnt from sailing a deep draught yacht in extremely tidal and shallow waters.
 

savageseadog

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............................. Bearing in mind that the course is often only announced for a class in the preparatory period, so a bit unfair to expect the tactician to miss the start in order to do tidal calcs for mark roundings.

We always check tidal heights for the duration of a race and make sure we're not going to touch down. It's a habit learnt from sailing a deep draught yacht in extremely tidal and shallow waters.
 

lpdsn

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We always check tidal heights for the duration of a race and make sure we're not going to touch down. It's a habit learnt from sailing a deep draught yacht in extremely tidal and shallow waters.

Again, that's a different scenario. Same as checking the heights well in advance if you foresee the opportunity to take a short cut across a bank in the race area. Or plan on going inshore to beat the tide.

The point is that you shouldn't be faced with turning up for a normal round the cans race having to work out whether or not you can round the marks. If you can't, do you get your entry fee back? Will they re-imburse you and your crew their expenses for getting themselves and the boat to the race? It just gets silly pretty quickly when you think about it.
 

lw395

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Well known feature of the race. A completely different story if you pay your entry fee for a round the cans race and turn up a few weeks later to find they've laid a course that stops you competing. Bearing in mind that the course is often only announced for a class in the preparatory period, so a bit unfair to expect the tactician to miss the start in order to do tidal calcs for mark roundings.

I agree.
A lot of SIs have some sort of cop-out saying you may not be able to sail the straight line from mark A to mark B.
It's annoying in a dinghy when you take the tip off a £600 Kevin centreboard, but if you have a dagger board or a fin keel yacht and start doing serious damage, race officers should be taken to task.
Particularly when you've paid to enter.
 

GrahamD

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If a race officer specifies a race mark which then can not be rounded because of inadequate depth in the immediate vicinity of the mark (especially if as in a handicap fleet, some can round and others can't) then I think that a boat that runs aground could request redress, as the boat has been disadvantaged through no fault of its own because of an omission or action of the race committee. However It is probable that you are out of time, because a request for redress relating to an incident in the race area ( which this seems to be) has to be made within the protest time limit.





I
 

markhomer

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If a race officer specifies a race mark which then can not be rounded because of inadequate depth in the immediate vicinity of the mark (especially if as in a handicap fleet, some can round and others can't) then I think that a boat that runs aground could request redress, as the boat has been disadvantaged through no fault of its own because of an omission or action of the race committee. However It is probable that you are out of time, because a request for redress relating to an incident in the race area ( which this seems to be) has to be made within the protest time limit.


A protest committee can hear a request for redress made after the protest time limit if there is a reason to do so , an example could be you grounded attempting to round the laid mark or mark described ( not a flippin island ) whilst navigating within reasonable distance off , tide going out and you were stuck delaying your return , many other circumstances could be considered and hearing held .







I
 

TallBuoy

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If a race officer specifies a race mark which then can not be rounded because of inadequate depth in the immediate vicinity of the mark (especially if as in a handicap fleet, some can round and others can't) then I think that a boat that runs aground could request redress, as the boat has been disadvantaged through no fault of its own because of an omission or action of the race committee. However It is probable that you are out of time, because a request for redress relating to an incident in the race area ( which this seems to be) has to be made within the protest time limit.





I

And the protest committee would struggle to reinstate a boat to give her a result, when she hasn't finished the race.
 

DFL1010

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Not necessarily. Rule A10(c):

If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.


Difficult to do in handicap racing since you can't just say 'we were third on the water, so third it is', but possible.

Also, if a boat retires due to damage caused by another boat, then that RET (i.e. not finished) is changed to RDG.
 

iandwall

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Well, we have asked for redress (within the time limit), so we'll see what happens when the committee meets next week.
 

Debenair

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Several years ago when doing Burnham Week, we had just such a scenario. As highest rated boat in our class we approached the first mark adjacent to the Buxey only to run aground about 100m short of it in company with a couple of Contessa 32s which had been in the start before us.
The remainder of our class who mostly drew less than us sailed past and round the mark. We managed to bump our way up to the mark and round it eventually, and then settle down to catching up the rest of the class on the beat to the nest mark.
It never occurred to me to seek redress, but that may have been due to a para in the SIs which stated in round terms that it might not be possible to sail the rhumb line between marks due to shallow water in the estuary.
 

Mudisox

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Defo request redress as flaming suggests ,

As matter of point you cannot protest a r ace committee , though often people refer to seeking redress as this , this in my experience just gets folks backs up , word soon goes thro fleet in hushed tones . Usually race committees that dont know the rules take this as a personal slight and stamp their little feets and go red in face and become very defensive .



As a RO I never mind giving competitors a chance to correct my or my teams errors and that should be the norm for all ROs who are worth having.


I was once scored ocs at an european champs and sought redress , was actually pulled aside by member of race committee upset that i was protesting them ( very disconcerting as obviously they didnt know rules to think i was even protesting ) , i quietly explained i was seeking redress for an action made by race committee that affected my result , took the international jury chair to get through to them , we all make mistakes , redress is system to sort them out .

Ps I was successful and was reinstated .
 
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