"Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

[KellysEye]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

My view was the key thing for us was to have a main anchor and chain to handle anchoring conditions up to force 6. A second anchor to put out in a Y if the wind is going top pick up to gale force and a monster anchor for storm force winds. This was for long distance sailing but if coastal sailing and if you are never anchoring in anywhere near gale force winds then you only need one anchor and chain. Bear in mind in shallow water you need 10 x times depth of water and in deep water 3 x depth so the catenary is holding the boat with the anchor as backup.

Out of interest our setup was for a heavy displacement 38 foot ketch - 180 feet of chain for a 45lb CQR, a Fortress for the second anchor to put out in a Y and a monster Fortess for a storm anchor both of the last two had 75 feet of chain and 100 feet of rope, we never used the storm anchor.

 

[Neeves]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

We carry 3 anchors, each a different design, each of which are of the size to be a, or the, primary. They are all modern anchors of similar hold. Many would consider them slightly undersized (as steel anchors they would all weigh 15kg for a 7t x 38' cat). The anchors we carry are all alloy and weight 8kg. We carry 3 anchors because we might lose one, different anchors are better in different seabeds and, a big 'and', if winds are forecast to be over 30 knots (in the anchorage) and we cannot move, then we would deploy a second anchor in a 'V'. The number of times the wind is going to be in excess of 30 knots - in the anchorage - is not often. We have an electric windlass but the second rode is a short length of chain and 40m of nylon.

I would not want to carry more than 20kg down the side deck of a yacht (in the rain and in the middle of the night) and I would not fancy changing an anchor from the bow roller if it weighed more than 20kg. Equally I would not fancy carrying more than 20kg of chain from the bilges to the bow.

We have recently changed to 6mm chain and carry 75m and our second rode has 15m (+ 40m of nylon), the chain in the second rode weighs 15kg. We are lucky in that cats have voluminous bow lockers, under the mast, so our second rode and 2 spare anchors are effectively at the bow roller. As all the anchors and second rode are light it is easy to carry to the transom in case we want to deploy from a dinghy.

We are also using 14m snubbers, climbing rope, one each side.

Jonathan

 

[pmagowan]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

I am afraid I still don't get the concept of a 'heavy weather anchor'! My main anchor IS my all weather anchor. It is at the bow ready for deployment. Why would I have a different anchor in reserve for if conditions were bad? My secondary anchors are for if the sea bed substrate is not suited to my primary anchor. If you intend being at anchor in truly horrendous conditions then get a bigger primary. My primary has held on its lonesome through conditions of up to force 9 steady. I can understand putting out 2 if conditions required and have done so, in a V, but only because the primary was insufficient. The idea of having a bigger secondary, just in case the primary is not big enough seems odd.

Your primary anchor should be your best anchor. I.e. The one that holds best in the sea beds you normally find yourself anchoring in.

 

[Tranona]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

I am afraid I still don't get the concept of a 'heavy weather anchor'! My main anchor IS my all weather anchor. It is at the bow ready for deployment. Why would I have a different anchor in reserve for if conditions were bad? My secondary anchors are for if the sea bed substrate is not suited to my primary anchor. If you intend being at anchor in truly horrendous conditions then get a bigger primary. My primary has held on its lonesome through conditions of up to force 9 steady. I can understand putting out 2 if conditions required and have done so, in a V, but only because the primary was insufficient. The idea of having a bigger secondary, just in case the primary is not big enough seems odd.

Your primary anchor should be your best anchor. I.e. The one that holds best in the sea beds you normally find yourself anchoring in.

+1. Also have problems with the concept of "heavy weather" anchor. By all means have a backup that is at least equal to your main anchor, but the latter should be capable of holding the boat in all conditions you are likely to meet. No advantage on a cruising boat of having a lighter anchor for "everyday" use.

 

[geem]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

+1. Also have problems with the concept of "heavy weather" anchor. By all means have a backup that is at least equal to your main anchor, but the latter should be capable of holding the boat in all conditions you are likely to meet. No advantage on a cruising boat of having a lighter anchor for "everyday" use.

+1
In addition, how do you know when you are going to get heavy weather? Forecasts are only forecasts. The only thing I would want to do when the wind picks up alarmingly is let more chain out. Who in their right mind would change the anchor as has been suggested on this thread? You can plan by all means for heavy weather but if it hits when you are not ready then you will be in trouble if you are on light ground tackle.
Our ground tackle is up to the job but we add a second aluminium anchor on rope in a y pattern if we wish to sleep well through very windy weather. This tackle can easily be deployed from the rib. Because it is easy, we do it. If it wasn't so easy I am not sure we would do it so often.

 

[NormanS]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

+1
In addition, how do you know when you are going to get heavy weather? Forecasts are only forecasts. The only thing I would want to do when the wind picks up alarmingly is let more chain out. Who in their right mind would change the anchor as has been suggested on this thread? You can plan by all means for heavy weather but if it hits when you are not ready then you will be in trouble if you are on light ground tackle.
Our ground tackle is up to the job but we add a second aluminium anchor on rope in a y pattern if we wish to sleep well through very windy weather. This tackle can easily be deployed from the rib. Because it is easy, we do it. If it wasn't so easy I am not sure we would do it so often.

+1

My second choice anchor used to be a massive 20kg (genuine) Danforth, with hinged "finger scissors". I changed it to a Fortress of approximately the same dimensions, but about one third of the weight. It seems to hold just as well in suitable ground, and is soooooo much easier to handle, either aboard or laying out with the dinghy. So, yes, we're much more likely to use it when conditions dictate.

Anyone want a 20kg Danforth?

 

[jonjo]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

I am afraid I still don't get the concept of a 'heavy weather anchor'!

Indeed but with exception of smaller yachts where routine anchoring is more dependaent on muscle power. Since the OP is reluctant to provide specific personal details this thread will fizzle out with no firm conclusion made.

As indicated by another poster earlier, the notion of planning to change anchoring gear mid way through a survival situation is not plausible. I suspect the OP is around retirment age which is when most yachtsmen start looking for labour saving sailing options, not make-work schemes . Who wants to drag a 50lb storm anchor onto a pitching fordeck at night and then drag another 100lbs of anchor chain, then start fighting with incredible loads on the bow fairlead.

The OP should spend time equipping for and practicing for real anchoring dramas such as:

1. Crowded summer anchor, late arrival picks a spot that will cause a gel coat scraping situation when the tide turns.
2. High volume charter yacht starts dragging onto you when the wind picks up in the middle of the night.
3. Inexperienced sailor gets his anchor cable twisted around yours and then tries to motor off.
4. Wind goes from 25knots to 45knots against the forecast and you need more scope than chain carried.

 

[lw395]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

My own boat is only 26 ft and i only do occasional multi-day trips, but being at anchor in a blow is a great equaliser!
I have a main anchor and a reserve anchor equivalent to the main anchor with a suitable length of nylon rope. No powered winch though and none is needed.
I sometimes use the reserve as a stern anchor simply to stop the boat doing circles in tideless anchorages.
The reserve is heavy and awkward to deploy for this so i am planning to buy a small lightweight anchor and lightweight line for the job. The loads for this duty are tiny compared with main anchor, and it may be an advantage if it did drag when an unexpected big blow comes through from astern.
The small anchor would also be handy for fishing and lunch stops where one is on deck and dragging is at worst inconvenient.
Food for thought?

Makes sense to me.
When you are on a boat with no windlass, a lightweight anchor is good to have.
I been on other peoples boats where they prefer to motor pointlessly than anchor in a flat calm, because anchoring is hard work.
Also racing of course where a light anchor and lots of string is wanted for kedging the tide.

A lot of people rarely overnight ontheir anchor, but anchor to swim or lunch or fish etc.
I have often anchored in places where sitting out a gale would be very silly, if it blows up you know you have to leave.
Different sort of sailing from some.
I'm not knocking anybody doing different sailing to me, I do think some people don't understand that other people do different sailing and seem intolerant of anyone whose needs and logic are different.

 

[Neeves]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

I actually find the idea of changing the anchor on the bow roller almost ludicrous. To change an anchor is very inconvenient even in a flat calm. I do it frequently, to test anchors in different seabeds - and its a major logistical exercise and not easy, even with 8kg alloy anchors. For you to retrieve the one on the bow roller you either need to let it off the bow roller on a piece of rope or on the chain. Depending on how you do it you might have had to attach a second rope to the crown to pull it back on board and attaching that might not be easy. You need to lower it far enough that the rope/chain is long enough to come up over the lifelines and you get the anchor on deck. You need to lift the anchor hanging over the bow - possibly the most confined space on any yacht. The anchor 'normally' on the bow roller is light (whatever that means) but then you need to repeat the exercise with the 'storm' anchor (which is heavy) to swap them round again.

On top of this you need to disengage the shackle, Loctite or Monel wire, so you need shackle key, wire snips, new monel/Loctite (and you need to remember to bring them with you (at 2am in the rain) + spare shackle for the one you drop or new shackle because the two shanks need different shackles.

The alternative is leaving the 'normal' anchor on the bow roller and somehow feeding a second rode, some of which is chain, either through a fairlead or second bow roller. I see topside damage, maybe fingers and divorce looming.

It would provide entertainment for nearby yachts.

Sailing is about pleasure.

Much easier to have a trustworthy anchor in the first place with something (maybe - and then deployed in a 'V') for when conditions get a bit testing. Most appropriately sized modern anchors (for the yacht) have been found to be totally reliable. I raised a thread about 6 months ago and reports of dragging with modern anchors, whether slightly undersized, correctly sized or slightly bigger, were almost non-existent (and usually due to fouling the anchor (crab pots, supermarket trolleys, gas cylinders, weed).

My practise of deploying a second anchor at 30 knots plus (in the anchorage) and others who do the same might be totally unnecessary - you would only know if you did not do it. But it gives peace of mind and is easy and as forecasts are simply forecasts 30kn + can easily become 40kn+ (hence our caution).

The only justification for the thread is academic or the OP has some sort of CQR copy as a primary - in which case instead of paying for remedial back work (caused by the storm anchor) I'd invest in a new, modern and genuine anchor and dump the questionable ones.

This might be an anchor thread but there is almost (maybe total) agreement - we all suggest the anchor on the bow roller should be adequate (and this can be achieved with a modern anchor of the correct size) and there should be no idea of a larger storm anchor lurking in the bilges.

Jonathan

 

[sarabande]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

Some people have worked out and agreed that an oversize anchor may be contra-indicated for a variety of reasons, including a sailing regime restricted to fair-weather sailing, and - despite some gloomy prognostications of monstrous katabatic winds, micro-bursts and plain evil cu-nims - it is possible to achieve that. Also absence of a winch influences choice. So "we all" is an overstatement, and the use of "adequate" without clear definition of or reference to the operating envelope is uncharacteristically imprecise.

To set your mind at rest, the normal anchor is a Knox (is that new, modern and genuine enough ?) for a boat nearly three feet longer, and the heavy duty anchor is a Delta for a boat twelve feet longer. There is also a Fortress in the lazarette. I am nothing if not non-partisan.

It is a little difficult to deploy a second anchor in a V moor if you don't have one on board, of course.

 

[Neeves]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

Now that we have the full information, we could have been more precise if you had simply given more detail - we were all working in the abstract and many who posted did point this out, I cannot imagine why you would want to swap the Knox, an excellent choice, for a Delta (even if the Delta is a bit bigger). The Knox will outperform the Delta every time - weight is not relevant until the Delta weighs more than 3 times the Knox.

I am most pleased you have invested in a Knox, certainly in some contrast to your previous loyalty.

In your particular case, and that is the consideration, you have this large Delta in the bilges and a Fortress in the lazerette - seems plenty of choice for a 'V' moor.

However you do not mention how big the Fortress is - if its not large enough to be a primary, or the next size down, then it might be too small - but certainly your Delta could be used in a 'V' moor. If its too big to handle - then it seems a bit of a waste lugging the extra weight around.

In my book anyone who sails and only carries one anchor, and has nothing to deploy should they lose the only one they have, should be persuaded to invest in another anchor that can be a primary. It does not need to be heavy, a decent sized Fortress will be perfectly adequate.

Jonathan

 

[lw395]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

Surely most people who 'change anchors' change the anchor complete with chain and rope rode?
Or is that just what I'm used to on racing and ex-racing boats?
Loctiting the anchor shackle is not something I'd expect to be doing at 2AM in the rain.

I think, if I were intending to use 'V mooring' techniques, I'd want adequate gear on the bow to make it safe. Cleats, second roller, suitable fairleads? Above all that, a plan and experience before you depend on it.

 

[NormanS]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

Surely most people who 'change anchors' change the anchor complete with chain and rope rode?
Or is that just what I'm used to on racing and ex-racing boats?
Loctiting the anchor shackle is not something I'd expect to be doing at 2AM in the rain.

I think, if I were intending to use 'V mooring' techniques, I'd want adequate gear on the bow to make it safe. Cleats, second roller, suitable fairleads? Above all that, a plan and experience before you depend on it.

Eh, it's quite difficult to get experience, before you do something new.

 

[Neeves]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

Surely most people who 'change anchors' change the anchor complete with chain and rope rode?
Or is that just what I'm used to on racing and ex-racing boats?
Loctiting the anchor shackle is not something I'd expect to be doing at 2AM in the rain.

I think, if I were intending to use 'V mooring' techniques, I'd want adequate gear on the bow to make it safe. Cleats, second roller, suitable fairleads? Above all that, a plan and experience before you depend on it.

Most, if not all, cruising yachts have bow cleats, usually 2, and some form of fairlead. Older yachts have a samson post. Deployment when making a 'V' is sometimes by dinghy. Forecast are sufficiently good that you know bad weather is coming and from which direction - timing and force might be a bit iffy - but having a totally unforecast gale, or worse, would be unusual. Its not that difficult.

If the yacht is of any size, and 35' is now small then you cannot physically carry the 'second' anchor attached to chain and rode down the side deck - its simply too big and heavy. So attachment would be at the bow. It would be unusual to change the main anchor, On racing yachts Open 60s, Volvos - the anchor and rode are separate. It is a major problem on racing yachts as to how to secure the rode as the foredeck is devoid of attachment points (and fairleads) and there is often a bowsprit with kicker holding it down (which will cut through the nylon of the rode very quickly). In the 2012 (though I might have the wrong year) Vendee the rode was cut through overnight at Auckland island and the second anchor, both Fortress, had to be deployed.

Jonathan

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

When I was 10yrs old, my granddad, a boat builder of skiffs and punts, resurrected a 10ft clinker dinghy for me.

In that dinghy I used to go 'piking' up at Abingdon weir with my best pal.

It took us around about an hour or more to row upstream to the weir pool whereupon we used to heave this massive boulder over the side which was attached to our sisal rope anchor line.

It took us many trips to ascertain the right size of boulder, as on the first trips we found ourselves either being washed out of the weir pool, or caught up in the eddy and taken back too close to the waterfall of Thames coming over the top of the weir.

Then on later trips when the rains had swollen the river a little, we not only took two hours to row to the weir pool, but the now enormous boulder that had evolved as to our perfect size for the job, was no longer holding us and the trip was deemed to be a waste of time.

I often think of those trips when anchoring my boat, nearly sixty years on.
Thank goodness for modern generation anchors so that the huge majority of the time I don't have to concern myself with being 'washed out of the pool' or taken back too close to the waterfall', or even 'a two anchor set-up, prudent for normal sailing'.




S.

 

[lw395]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

Eh, it's quite difficult to get experience, before you do something new.

But you can get experience experimenting on a sunny day, instead of under pressure with a storm coming.
It's interesting (at least to me!) to consider the different things that work, or not, on the various boats I've sailed.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Re: "Normal" and "Heavy Duty" anchoring. Change the anchor, or another set of kit ?

But you can get experience experimenting on a sunny day, instead of under pressure with a storm coming.
It's interesting (at least to me!) to consider the different things that work, or not, on the various boats I've sailed.

Too true, I have an instance to share that shows practice makes for an improvement.

Mrs. S and I set off for Scotland a few years back.

Mrs S decided that she wanted to stop somewhere early enroute ,to see how easy it should be to get all the emergency gear deployed in an MOB situation.

"Of course I had thought of that", I lied, and I intend to stop off at Weymouth to practice.

This we did and alongside the harbour wall we soon attracted an audience on a summery June Sunday morning.

Not surprisingly, things were in a bit of a tangle at the back of the cockpit, as we had hurriedly stowed much of the gear both below and outside two days previously, in Portsmouth, in steady rain.

Our first attempt of throwing overboard the danbuoy, light and horseshoe buoy, took us about a minute and a half, due to having to undo the many tangles and throw it all into the water astern of our boat.

If I remember rightly, after several attempts it took us just seconds deploy and to the applause of the gathering crowd.

S.