No paper charts for one off trip

[Conachair]

When cruising it was nearly all cm93, with a small scale chart of, say Spain & Portugal plus CA almanac for harbour/anchorage charts. CA book seemed to have a bit more chartlets than the cruising guides. Plenty enough for Europe. Further afield there were anchorage print partys on whatever boat had a printer onboard, where we´d print out some A4´s of the general area we were heading for as a back up. So nearly always using CM93 charts on a laptop ( and google earth can be very useful ) but with enough paper to get by just in case.

Think that was a fairly common setup with us more frugal boaters

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I just want to know what these traditional methods are that do not use electronics or maps of any kind.

Well, I'd like to think that people would often remember enough detail of where they'd come from to safely get back there.

I'd think they might even remember enough detail of where they're going to get in there. (The fact they've decided to go there suggests they've already had a good look at pilot info, and they've had a good enough look at the entrance to know they can get in at the time they plan to arrive.)

I'm strugging to think of a trip I've done recently where instant loss of all chart info would have lead to disaster.

I'm going to make up some numbers to demonstrate:

Chance of loss of all acess to chart data on 4 independent devices some with battery backup. 1,000,000-1[1]
Chance of not having enough recollection of the local area to get somewhere safe: 80-1
Chance of no boat being around to give you a lead or lend chart: Who knows, call it 2-1 on average.
Chance of being unable to sail up and down on the spot until someone does come along. 100-1
If the situation was really dire the chance of being unable to raise the CG with the last position. Who Knows, call it 5-1 on average.

We can quibble about my fictional numbers but I don't think you could make any estimate add up to any significant danger.

And while we're at it what is meant by 'paper charts'. Small scale paper charts aren't going to be much more use than memory in reaching safety on shore. Is it really practical to carry large scale paper charts for the whole of the UK?

I'm a massive fan of paper charts, far easier to work with than a plotter (Range in, range in, scroll, scroll, range out, scroll, ooops too far. Frustration city.). No plotter has the screen size of 40 inches you get with paper charts. I'd say the real advantage of paper charts is convenience not safety, and you can manage without that.

My 2ps worth.


[1] If you get struck by lightening, navigation is not your biggest worry!

 

[bbg]

Sorry, but I was referring to Vyv's post where he said he had no paper charts. He said that if his electronics failed he would revert to traditional methods.

In one sense you are right, of course. But you are looking at the consequences of failure. First you have to look at the risk of failure.

What is the risk of jimi's three entirely independent systems all failing completely within a period of 12 to 48 hours? Miniscule.

The consequence of falling off a boat while on singlehanded passage is almost certainly death due to hypothermia or drowning. That doesn't mean it is reasonable to wear a survival suit every time you leave harbour.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Is the real question how much finger-pointing would go on if you came to grief with no charts?

Interesting perspective. I guess Sailing with no paper charts is no problem. If you hit something in a boat with no paper charts you look a right tw@t.

Guess Jimi can cover that with one tiny scale chart of the whole of the uk. If he stacks it he can hand on heart say he had paper charts for the whole journey. The RNLI won't call the Daily Mail for a character assasination session and all will be right in the world.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I agree with you, but the question still stands. This is not about probability, or safety. It's about how to navigate if you have no chart and no electronics.

Turning back may be an option, but it may not due to weather, tide or a host of other factors.

 

[Angele]

Chance of loss of all acess to chart data on 4 independent devices some with battery backup. 1,000,000-1

... provided you do regularly check that each device is still working and that your batteries haven't leaked, etc, etc.

Electronic backups only effective if they are known to have been in working order very recently!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

That doesn't mean it is reasonable to wear a survival suit every time you leave harbour.

Personally I don't wear one, but I'd say[1] it would be entirely reasonable to wear a survival suit every time you go out in UK waters.

[1] At least most of the year.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I agree with you, but the question still stands. This is not about probability, or safety. It's about how to navigate if you have no chart and no electronics.

Turning back may be an option, but it may not due to weather, tide or a host of other factors.

Yeah, but nobody's been at the sailor's brain with the Men-in-Black pen. This is a journey that's been passage planned. More likely than not one or two remembered features might get the sailor safely in somewhere. He'll have been regularly looking at the chart during the journey. I think his spatial awareness would be good enough to avoid disaster.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

... provided you do regularly check that each device is still working and that your batteries haven't leaked, etc, etc.

Electronic backups only effective if they are known to have been in working order very recently!

Yeah, I've been on boats where "Chance of loss of all acess to chart data on 4 independent devices some with battery backup" would be 1-1.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Yeah, but nobody's been at the sailor's brain with the Men-in-Black pen. This is a journey that's been passage planned. More likely than not one or two remembered features might get the sailor safely in somewhere. He'll have been regularly looking at the chart during the journey. I think his spatial awareness would be good enough to avoid disaster.

Don't agree with that. Perhaps along a simple coastline, but not somewhere like the Channel Islands, or the Baltic, or anywhere with rocks that need clearing bearings, or sand bars, or in fog, or at night, or in heavy traffic.

Shall I go on?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Plenty navigated without charts for millennia. It has been done and it can be done today. The probability of an incident increases but that does not prevent one from navigating in some form.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Don't agree with that. Perhaps along a simple coastline, but not somewhere like the Channel Islands, or the Baltic, or anywhere with rocks that need clearing bearings, or sand bars, or in fog, or at night, or in heavy traffic.

Not sure charts help in heavy traffic. Baltic is ofter shallowish and you could prolly anchor. Channel islands? Pretty well bouyed AFAIR and busy in summer.

But yes, you can make up scenarios where you face disaster without charts, but I don't think that's typical. Typically you'd be fine.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Plenty navigated without charts for millennia. It has been done and it can be done today. The probability of an incident increases but that does not prevent one from navigating in some form.

+1

Wish I could have put it as succinctly as that.

 

[Elemental]

Plenty navigated without charts for millennia. It has been done and it can be done today. The probability of an incident increases but that does not prevent one from navigating in some form.

+1

Wish I could have put it as succinctly as that.

Me too. For someone who is aware of the need to navigate, and has the skills to navigate, understands buoyage and has been keeping tabs on their progress so far, then the absence of a paper chart is unlikely to completely prevent navigation to somewhere of safety. IMHO.

I'd still be more comfortable with a large scale passage chart though.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Me too. For someone who is aware of the need to navigate, and has the skills to navigate, understands buoyage and has been keeping tabs on their progress so far, then the absence of a paper chart is unlikely to completely prevent navigation to somewhere of safety. IMHO.

I'd still be more comfortable with a large scale passage chart though.

Sorry, but how are you "keeping tabs" if you have never been somewhere before and have no chart of where you are?

What you are talking about isn't navigating at all. Its guessing. You are that not all passages are made to and from somewhere you are familiar with. Have you not read the previous posts? How good is your guessing going to be in low visibility with a strong current and fickle wind?

I am willing to bet that all these brave navigators quoting "it was fine for millennia" would miss France from the Isle of Wight with no chart, no instruments and no visibility. Ok, you might get lucky because you remember it is due south 60 miles but you would have no idea if you were in Normandy or Brittany.

Have you ever tried really blind navigation? Dead reckoning is very difficult and inaccurate even with a chart to plot your guesses on. Throw the chart away and you have no point of reference. Even if your DR is spot on you still do not know where the land is.

 

[lustyd]

Don't agree with that. Perhaps along a simple coastline, but not somewhere like the Channel Islands, or the Baltic, or anywhere with rocks that need clearing bearings, or sand bars, or in fog, or at night, or in heavy traffic.

Shall I go on?

What you are missing here is the difference between knowing where you are and being safe. If you don't have charts, you simply stay well away from the rocks and stick to channels.

I can drive my car all day every day without falling off the road, even if I don't have a map to hand and it's the same on the boat. If and when you lose access to charts you are no longer "navigating" you are finding the best way to get back to a safe bit of land. Navigating is when you have a destination - Jimi wants to go to the Caledonian Canal for instance. If he loses access to charts he will probably not be heading to the canal but rather the closest safe haven (which can be found with the Mk1 eyeball). Anyone who would still try for their destination is taking a risk but not having a chart changes nothing. Your huge stack of paper could get wet (which is more likely than GPS failure to be honest) and you're in the same situation. Do you carry spares of all of your charts in a dry bag? A sextant? how about a mechanical (not battery powered), accurate chronometer? No? Well then stop insisting that modern sailors carry antiquated backups! Appologies if you carry all of that but I strongly doubt it.

 

[Kukri]

Thirty eight years ago I crewed on a boat down the Irish Sea with no chart of anywhere from Rathlin Island to the Scillies. The skipper took a chart of the North Sea between similat latitudes, pricked through the parallels of latitude and some lines of longitude, ruled them in with the parallel rulers and plotted the lights from the list in Brown's Almanac. He was a member of the Royal Cruising Club.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

What you are missing here is the difference between knowing where you are and being safe. If you don't have charts, you simply stay well away from the rocks and stick to channels.

I can drive my car all day every day without falling off the road, even if I don't have a map to hand and it's the same on the boat. If and when you lose access to charts you are no longer "navigating" you are finding the best way to get back to a safe bit of land. Navigating is when you have a destination - Jimi wants to go to the Caledonian Canal for instance. If he loses access to charts he will probably not be heading to the canal but rather the closest safe haven (which can be found with the Mk1 eyeball). Anyone who would still try for their destination is taking a risk but not having a chart changes nothing. Your huge stack of paper could get wet (which is more likely than GPS failure to be honest) and you're in the same situation. Do you carry spares of all of your charts in a dry bag? A sextant? how about a mechanical (not battery powered), accurate chronometer? No? Well then stop insisting that modern sailors carry antiquated backups! Appologies if you carry all of that but I strongly doubt it.

Thank you. I love your reply. Perhaps you have missed the point. We are not discussing being safe. We are discussing navigating. If you want to be safe then just stay where you are!

Sorry, but I do have spare charts (and they are laminated so they can get wet) a watch and a sextant. I also hardly ever use them as my two plotters, 2 gps aerials, 2 iPads, 2 iPhones, a MacBook, PC with GPS dongle are more than up to the job.

But that is missing the point, and neither am I insisting that anyone carries anything.

My point is a very simple one. If you have no chart at all, of any scale, and all your electronics fail then all you can hope to do is somehow find a safe way somewhere. Not necessarily where you were going to or came from. Just somewhere. That's not Navigating.

If you take the trouble to read the thread you will see that someone said that if all electronics failed and you had no chart then you could rely on "traditional navigation" if you can explain to me how you Navigate without any form of chart or instruments then I shall go on a course to learn myself as clearly my Yachtmaster Ocean and Instrument Rating have left me navigationally challenged. .

 

[Conachair]

My point is a very simple one. If you have no chart at all, of any scale, and all your electronics fail then all you can hope to do is somehow find a safe way somewhere. Not necessarily where you were going to or came from. Just somewhere. That's not Navigating.

Slight thread drift but instead of arguing over words, who has sailed with no paper whatsoever?

Really doubt if Jimi would without at least some paper onboard.

I have, and it really didn´t feel good . After an overnight change of plan Cape Verde, the passage to Brazil was done with just a laptop and a small digital camera containing some photos from a many times photocopied cruising guide.
But it worked, highly unlikely I´ll ever sail again without at least something on paper.

So hands up! Who here sails/would sail with absolutely nothing apart from electronic?

 

[bbg]

My point is a very simple one. If you have no chart at all, of any scale, and all your electronics fail then all you can hope to do is somehow find a safe way somewhere. Not necessarily where you were going to or came from. Just somewhere. That's not Navigating.

I don't think jimi was asking about navigating without paper charts if all his electronics fail. You are right - that would be difficult.

His question was different - whether, given all the redundancies he has, it is foolish to sail without paper charts. My answer - probably not, but I would personally print off a couple of passage charts in A3, and maybe a couple of major harbours, then laminate them.