No more drunken sailors

[ylop]

I don’t think I was moralising but it’s not the 1980’s and I certainly wasn’t defending HOP subsidised bars etc.: they may have legitimate justifications but should be so acutely aware of the optics to not be subsidised, nor serving before the commons sits.

Even 15-20 yrs ago Scottish and Newcastle cut the opening hours for the bar in their HQ to encourage responsible drinking (or at least give a message about it).

 

[wonkywinch]

On a recent Cunard cruise, very interesting talk given about the history of rum in the navy.

And the steel beach party which I'd never heard of before ..

Steel beach picnic - Wikipedia

 

[dunedin]

Medical consensus now is that there is no ‘safe’ alcohol limit.
….

Don’t disagree with that.
But with respect to the armed forces, there is I suppose also no “safe” role on a RN warship. By definition the usual health and safety at work aspects do not apply well in front line situations with hostile forces.

Clearly alcohol is a very bad idea when on operational duties. But perhaps people being asked to risk their lives on their job should be permitted a bit of alcohol when off duty?

 

[ylop]

Clearly alcohol is a very bad idea when on operational duties. But perhaps people being asked to risk their lives on their job shoukd be permitted a bit of alcohol when off duty?

But they are still being allowed alcohol when off watch - just a bit less than they used to be.

 

[capnsensible]

Don’t disagree with that.
But with respect to the armed forces, there is I suppose also no “safe” role on a RN warship. By definition the usual health and safety at work aspects do not apply well in front line situations with hostile forces.

Clearly alcohol is a very bad idea when on operational duties. But perhaps people being asked to risk their lives on their job should be permitted a bit of alcohol when off duty?

The only time you are 'off duty' is when you are ashore.....

 

[lustyd]

The only time you are 'off duty' is when you are ashore.....

Again then it’s curious that they feel a need to change the rules.

 

[seeSimon]

The only time you are 'off duty' is when you are ashore.....

The US OnG firms have thought about this...be sure you've sobered up before you get back!

If flying offshore, you are eligible for random Drug and Alcohol testing once you present yourself for check-in.
If a walk/launch ashore scenario, same applies at the bottom of the gangway, once you put your ID card into the "onboard" rack.

Tests are both "random" (lucky winners drawn at HQ in Houston, allegedly), and on the basis of any suspicion at passenger presentation.

 

[LittleSister]

Interesting comments from people who have probably never set foot on a warship let alone spend months at sea on one.....

I'm allowed to comment because I have set foot on a warship . . .

albeit barely more than one foot - I went aboard HMS Belfast for maybe 20 minutes for a shower circa 1966/7.

Medical consensus now is that there is no ‘safe’ alcohol limit.

But so what? If one is averse to risk, one wouldn't be going on warships at all!

Life as a whole is not very safe, and I find it interesting that putting oneself in some degree of danger is a perhaps inherent part of being human. Just watch children and especially youths (most notably male youths), exploring and experimenting with their, and different experiences', limits. Alcohol appears to be falling out of favour somewhat with much (but certainly not all) of our society's youth, but meanwhile outrageously dangerous sports such as base jumping appear to be on the rise.

There are certainly very many individuals who avoid intoxication as such but most, perhaps all, societies use some form of drug (alcohol or others) or religious etc. trances, meditation or whatever to achieve some sort of different-to-normal state.

It's often suggested there is some sort of link between drugged and heightened religious/artistic states. (For some reason I've just remembered seeing something about ancient Greek oracles being located at places where there were intoxifying volcanic gases.) I wonder, too, about whether there is some sort of relationship between the urge for drugged or religious and other out-of-normal states of mind, and the need for sleep and the dreaming that involves. (And if you don't get sleep you soon start hallucinating without the need for the expense of intoxicants, or the inconvenience of learning/enacting drug-free altered states of mind!)

In our society heavy drinking and other drug use is very much associated with certain jobs and lifestyles of extreme pressure, extreme routine or extreme boredom/ennui/lack of routine - I'm thinking of e.g. mining, banking, journalism, entertainment and such industries. Perhaps people, or some of them, in the Royal Navy need a little yin to go with their yang?

. . . Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot and Donald Trump known to be dedicated non-drinkers, so what do I know?

They may have been non-drinkers, but Hitler and Trump (i don't know about Pol Pot) are reputed to be heavy drug users!

 

[jamie N]

The US OnG firms have thought about this...be sure you've sobered up before you get back!

If flying offshore, you are eligible for random Drug and Alcohol testing once you present yourself for check-in.
If a walk/launch ashore scenario, same applies at the bottom of the gangway, once you put your ID card into the "onboard" rack.

Tests are both "random" (lucky winners drawn at HQ in Houston, allegedly), and on the basis of any suspicion at passenger presentation.

In Thailand, on every offshore flight, everyone onboard is breathalysed, including the flight crew, and it's not unheard of that one of them isn't allowed on.
I think that Vietnam is the same, but was never on a helicopter there.
Flying out of Aberdeen, everyone is liable to be tested, but I've only ever seen someone tested where it was obvious that they were going to fail. Normally, if a guy stinks of alcohol, the security folk will give him the word that he's better off being a 'no-show', and catching a flight 'later on', rather than being caught and 'black listed'.

 

[capnsensible]

Again then it’s curious that they feel a need to change the rules.

It's the eighth 'wonder' of the world.

 

[LittleSister]

Again then it’s curious that they feel a need to change the rules.

It is said that the Navy has a huge cohort of senior management. They do need something to find something to keep themselves busy!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I don’t think Gen X and millennials have nearly such a problem with giving up booze for a bit. I’m continually astonished at the amount people my age or older put away. And in some surprising cases still drive afterwards.

 

[lustyd]

I don’t think Gen X and millennials have nearly such a problem with giving up booze for a bit. I’m continually astonished at the amount people my age or older put away. And in some surprising cases still drive afterwards.

They just switched to ketamine and other substances as they can't afford alcohol, it's not that they're less enthusiastic about drugs

 

[newtothis]

I don’t think Gen X and millennials have nearly such a problem with giving up booze for a bit. I’m continually astonished at the amount people my age or older put away. And in some surprising cases still drive afterwards.

Oi, leave Gen X out of it; the first of us are 60 now and four sheets to the wind most of the time. It's the Millennials and Gen Z that are killing off the alcohol industry.

 

[ylop]

They just switched to ketamine and other substances as they can't afford alcohol, it's not that they're less enthusiastic about drugs

I think that's not quite right. Its impossible to encapsulate an entire generation in one sweeping statement but the ketamine, coke and cannabis users are likely also drinkers! They may drink less than they would if they didn't have other substances but they are not the people Chiara is referring to. Random drug testing is common within the military so its probably not a huge substitute on navy ships. Presumably, they aren't paying London prices for a pint on board.

However, there is a large group of people, particularly in Gen Z*, who just don't drink at all - some estimates in the UK suggest 25% of 18-25s don't drink or take drugs. The age group is very image conscious and perhaps social media's one good benefit has been to make them more cautious about doing stuff that's captured forever. That group are much more likely to be taking creatine to muscle build and found taking pictures in the mirror/at the gym than illicit white powders or drinking stuff that gives you a fat belly! I've also heard it suggested that this generation are much more comfortable just being who they are and accepting others for who they are, and so alcohol as a social inhibition remover / mask is less needed.

It is very easy to end up in a bubble of people who behave similarly to you and then assume that everyone else does the same - whether that's going out for 10 pints every Friday night and finishing the night with a line of coke, sharing a bottle of wine with your spouse every night, smoking a joint every time you take the dog for a walk or only having a glass of fizz at Christmas. Its actually quite eye opening when you look in both directions and see what "normal" really is.

* I assume he meant Gen Z not Gen X - most new recruits will be Gen Z and soon Gen Alpha.

 

[The Q]

Again then it’s curious that they feel a need to change the rules.

It's not about a NEED to change the rules...
It's about showing the government they have policies to prevent things, like racism and drugs..
It already was illegal to be drunk on duty in the uk military and always has been. You can be called to duty anytime any day..

It's not that new.
When I joined the RAF in 1976 if you didn't attend social events / attend the bar occasionally your annual assessments got marked down.
By the time I left in 88 your assessments were marked down it you attended too often.
Only knew one guy who got in trouble got getting drunk too often... He went off the rails just after his brother had been killed in a car crash.

I knew another who was an alcoholic and couldn't function without drink, somehow he got away with it, probably because he could do his job having had a few and didn't smell of booze.

 

[lustyd]

Those studies entirely rely on surveys. Most young people when asked if they are regularly using drugs will lie. Other studies quite clearly show through evidence that drug usage is massively increasing outside of alcohol. Anecdotally the sheer quantity of N2O cannisters in carparks would suggest that quite a few people are enjoying themselves without alcohol, and this is backed up by NHS data on people suffering as a result.

 

[capnsensible]

As I understand it, the UK, like so many other countries, has a big drug problem.

There has long been random drug testing in the British Military.

 

[newtothis]

As I understand it, the UK, like so many other countries, has a big drug problem.

It does. They're too bloody expensive.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I don’t think Gen X and millennials have nearly such a problem with giving up booze for a bit. I’m continually astonished at the amount people my age or older put away. And in some surprising cases still drive afterwards.