No more drunken sailors

[dgadee]

The Union Moon out of the Cook Islands and that well known British Ship Master Capt: Miroslaw Pozniak. I remember that incident too. He sounds almost Polish or Russian..

I bet that ship never saw within 5000 miles of the Cook islands. Lots of Poles in UK.

I was wrong - thought it was going to IoM. Was Dagenham.

 

[capnsensible]

Interesting comments from people who have probably never set foot on a warship let alone spend months at sea on one.....

I and the majority of crews I went to sea with don't drink at sea at all. Might get the occasional chap having a birthday beer, or blokes that had put in a hard watch in the engine room. But being prepared constantly for the unexpected doesn't go with drinking. Leisure hours are mostly devoted to sleep.

It's a habit that I still stuck with when I was a yachting pro and now doing play boat. If you put a skippers hat on, you have got to take the responsibilities too. I've never stopped anyone from having the odd wet at sea on deliveries or whatever, but crew realise quite quickly that it's not the best seagoing choice.

After all, if you get bored you take some sun sights, reduce them and plot them on a plotting sheet.....

 

[veshengro]

You don't need to sail a Russian ship to have a Russian master; Russians and eastern Europeans make up a large part of the officer class in commercial shipping.

Ok, you know better than me, it's just that I never knew or heard of a Russian National as ship Master in a British ship out of British Ports when I was at sea in the '60's and 70's.

On the count of 3 everyone get Googling..quick..

 

[S04]

The practice when I was in the Navy was no drinking apart for "Up channel" night when we might have one beer the night before returning to Dolphin.

 

[lustyd]

I and the majority of crews I went to sea with don't drink at sea at all

Curious then that the Navy consider it necessary to change the rules. I was assuming most drinking actually happened when not at sea anyway. I’m certainly one that’s never been to sea on one and can’t imagine I’d have done well in the Navy. I know enough current and ex Navy folk to know making the ships dry probably won’t reduce overall intake all that significantly. The pubs of Portsmouth and Plymouth certainly do quite well.

 

[newtothis]

Ok, you know better than me, it's just that I never knew or heard of a Russian National as ship Master in a British ship out of British Ports when I was at sea in the '60's and 70's.

Nah, I'm just not old enough to remember when there were British masters sailing British ships out of British ports.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Being drunk on board a RN ship at sea is and was a serious offence. I spent months at sea on warships over the nearly 22 years I served and only remember once a rating being charged with being drunk. The watch keepers didn’t drink at all. Maintenance and day workers might have a couple of small tins of beer etc in the evening. I really don’t see the problem.

This was surface fleet. Submariners were different.

 

[capnsensible]

 

[Greg2]

During my time in the Navy (‘79 to ‘86) I was on surface ships and whilst drinking in port was the standard pastime people tended to be more restrained at sea. Sometimes I wouldn’t drink at all at sea and sometimes I might have one or two if I was ‘last dog all night in’ or on Channel night. The ration was three small cans per day per man but with a good beer bosun supply was managed and you could have more if you wanted it. The thing is that whist people getting into escapades during a run ashore wasn’t unusual it was a different matter at sea and I don’t recall any incidents of people being unfit for duty due to drink.

My understanding is that the current Navy is very different to the one in which I served and alcohol consumption is nothing like what it was and it sounds as though this latest development, whilst perhaps a little over the top, is moving with the times.
.

 

[seeSimon]

40 years offshore, so the very IDEA of having booze onboard, especially when weapons are involved, is such a mesmerisingly stupid one, that only the military could try to justify it.
However, the US Navy has long been dry, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot and Donald Trump known to be dedicated non-drinkers, so what do I know?
For the foreseeable future though, the GK24 ZEBEDEE won't be a dry boat.

Yes, offshore OnG has been dry since forever...US influences I think?
My last Co even enforced their puritanical no drink/drugs/gambling rules when the rig was laid up/in refit ...in the UK.
"You sold your limey ass, boy!"...said one red neck manager as he spat tobacco juice into a spittoon...on the rig...no smoking either, you see?
It was only relatively recently they allowed mobile phones on board, at all...

US MN ships dry too, in my more limited experience. Only sailed on a couple, with just one company. They don't major on comfort or "individual choices", very paramilitary.

UK MN ships were very much fuelled by booze in my day...latterly dry tho.
Most now have fairly rigorous DnA policies, accompanied by random spot testing, the same as offshore.

Excepting only the RFA (who contrary to much popular opinion are still civvi MN sailors...afaik) , who also have a recruitment crisis, yet also get to keep (some) booze... and weapons.
Madness!

So you end up with contractors working for UK MOD who have more rigorous drug and alcohol policies than HM forces. More madness!

Very much RN n RFA who are out of step.

 

[Cerebus]

Only sodomy and the lash left now, and I think the lash is being phased out.
No more drunken sailors? Navy to restrict alcohol in health kick on ships

Well, some private sailors may remain drunk… hick up…

 

[ylop]

If it such a good idea, then why not apply it across the board?
Start with the Houses of Parliament, The NHS, Civil Service, Police Fire and Ambulance. Oh, and the Clergy.

I’m not sure the NHS, Civil Service, Police, Fire, Ambulance provide alcohol to employees on site do they?

The way some of you are reacting I thought they’d actually banned if outright - no they’ve just changed a limit to align with medical advice. Perhaps a worry about being sued in 20 yrs time by ex-sailors with long term effects?

Jobs are not 24x7, especially when the ship could be away from home for months.

Merchant navy, off shore workers, retained fire fighters and some others are often expected to be teatotal for days or weeks on end. We don’t press gang anyone to join these days so I’m not going to lose sleep over it. I doubt it will have an adverse effect on recruitment - young people are less obsessed with alcohol than their forefathers. If it does they can always change the rules - the ration has been varied up and down many times over the centuries.

 

[Cerebus]

During my time in the Navy (‘79 to ‘86) I was on surface ships and whilst drinking in port was the standard pastime people tended to be more restrained at sea. Sometimes I wouldn’t drink at all at sea and sometimes I might have one or two if I was ‘last dog all night in’ or on Channel night. The ration was three small cans per day per man but with a good beer bosun supply was managed and you could have more if you wanted it. The thing is that whist people getting into escapades during a run ashore wasn’t unusual it was a different matter at sea and I don’t recall any incidents of people being unfit for duty due to drink.

My understanding is that the current Navy is very different to the one in which I served and alcohol consumption is nothing like what it was and it sounds as though this latest development, whilst perhaps a little over the top, is moving with the times.
.

Drink certainly can lead to mistakes … so drinking whilst sailing seems not a good idea.

I only drink when I know or hope i am free of obligations for 2 days or so I the future (unless it is a single, sociable drink and even then it may just be a half).

I was not so circumspect when I was a youth… I was lucky that I never had many responsibilities either … and I didn’t really drink a lot even then. I don’t think I have ever been ‘drunk’

Still, alcohol is becoming classed as a poison like tobacco…

 

[lustyd]

Still, alcohol is becoming classed as a poison like tobacco…

By who?

 

[Blue Seas]

I’m not sure the NHS, Civil Service, Police, Fire, Ambulance provide alcohol to employees on site do they?

The way some of you are reacting I thought they’d actually banned if outright - no they’ve just changed a limit to align with medical advice. Perhaps a worry about being sued in 20 yrs time by ex-sailors with long term effects?


Merchant navy, off shore workers, retained fire fighters and some others are often expected to be teatotal for days or weeks on end. We don’t press gang anyone to join these days so I’m not going to lose sleep over it. I doubt it will have an adverse effect on recruitment - young people are less obsessed with alcohol than their forefathers. If it does they can always change the rules - the ration has been varied up and down many times over the centuries.

I'm not disagreeing with the basic premise here (of mixing alcohol with duties). It should not happen, end of.
I was taking about the sheer hypocrisy of those (MOD officials) imposing this on certain groups (who cannot respond) but who would not have the balls to try to impose the same on Union backed Civil Servants etc.
To take you points;
1. The RN does not 'provide' alcohol - it sells it, and has done so since 1973 to my certain knowledge. The only 'Free' drink I received in a couple of decades was a Tot of rum provided by the then Prince Charles to celebrate his marriage to Diana. It was issued, on a single occasion, to the Forces world wide at his personal cost.
2. In the mid-1980's HM Customs raided a shipping container in Devonport dockyard that was storing alcohol for a submarine out on 2 month patrol. The crew had agreed with the skipper to leave it all ashore and run a 'dry boat', drinking it when they got back. Customs blocked it on the basis that it was 'not consumed at sea' and went looking for the back duty! Good incentive eh?
3. The UK Government has one of the finest wine stores in the world (39,000 bottles of the finest worth north of £2m) - it is available to all departments including Civil Service, HMRC, and MOD. The Houses of Parliament have some of the best subsidised bars in the country. Open at lunchtime before they all saunter back in to vote on such trivial matters as whether or not we should renew the nuclear deterrent or attack Iraq.
4. Every government department has a 'hospitality' budget that permits the provision and consumption of alcohol at our expense.
5. I have enjoyed many a night out in Police clubs, Fire Service clubs and Hospital parties with copious amounts of alcohol freely available.

I was legally entitled to drink both beers and spirits at sea if I wished to, there were no checks other than if somebodies' monthly mess bill was getting excessive. A quiet word from shipmates would already have happened. I did not take advantage of this entitlement, I did my drinking ashore, work hard play hard as I still do now.

So if and when I see you calling for the complete disposal of Government wine stocks, closure of Westminster bars, and the end of free 'hospitality' at our expense I will start to take your moralising seriously.

 

[Cerebus]

By who?

Almost every medical advisor that posts on social media / news.

I could dig up a few YouTube videos but that caused me a lot of trouble posting YouTube previously.

I still drink. Am trying to cut down after being what I have learned… it is not just liver, it is vascular dementia, strokes, heart attaches, stomach trouble (serious life taking trouble) …

 

[Biggles Wader]

Times change. We live in a far more puritanical and authoritarian society now than when I first went to sea fifty odd years ago. Attitudes to alcohol have moved from it being normal to have a few drinks at work to that being something akin to child abuse or stealing the contents of the till. We seem to lurch from one extreme to the other----My recollections of life at sea in the 70s were that the level of drinking was excessive but the modern attitudes are equally extreme in the other direction.
As mentioned above recruitment to the RN and RFA is a serious problem and maybe some compromises are needed to attract and retain young people. Not ideal but better than ships with no crews.

 

[westhinder]

By who?

Medical consensus now is that there is no ‘safe’ alcohol limit.
Does that mean that alcohol has to be banned altogether? In my opinion, no. Everyone has the freedom to decide what to do or not with their own health.
But it will mean that over time alcohol will be out of the question in all contexts where there is a safety implication, be it driving a car, a plane or a boat or any other occupation. Which is already the case in most areas. You wouldn’t want to be a passenger in a plane the pilot and co-pilot of which had a few before takeoff.
I had the opportunity during my working life to visit the Troll gas platform. It came as no surprise that not only smoking but also alcohol was strictly forbidden. Nothing to do with rednecks but safety-conscious Norwegians. That was 35 years ago.

 

[Greg2]

Drink certainly can lead to mistakes … so drinking whilst sailing seems not a good idea.

I only drink when I know or hope i am free of obligations for 2 days or so I the future (unless it is a single, sociable drink and even then it may just be a half).

I was not so circumspect when I was a youth… I was lucky that I never had many responsibilities either … and I didn’t really drink a lot even then. I don’t think I have ever been ‘drunk’

Still, alcohol is becoming classed as a poison like tobacco…

It is probably relevant to say that a warship is home to the ships company so they are not always on duty or in an environment where they may be required to stand to at short / no notice. I agree that drinking whilst sailing or on / foreseeably required for duty is not good but in my (very dated) experience, as an illustration, the beer fridge tended to stay locked when in defence watches in the south Atlantic but on passage from / back to the U.K. it was open and those off duty who fancied a can could have one.

Attitudes are certainly changing towards alcohol and if it were newly discovered one can’t help but wonder whether it would be made freely available for public consumption.
.

 

[stranded]

´I’m not sure the NHS, Civil Service, Police, Fire, Ambulance provide alcohol to employees on site do they’

When I joined the civil service in the late 80s both the Home Office and Foreign Office had subsidised staff bars on site - lasted well into the 90s I think. The Foregn Office managed to hang on to theirs for longer because the pubs around there were riddled with spies.