No automatic bilge pump - problem or not?

Re: A cautious disagreement

Many may have false trust...but not me. It's there for convenience, to deal with rainwater via the edges of the canopy + condensation There's a much much larger pump for waves over the boat underway & the hull's foam filled + "USCG insubmersible".

You've no idea how much or little water it'd take to come over the cabin floor,or how awkward/expensive it might be to prevent rain leaking in... so no way can you comment about my standard of boatcare. talking bilgewater, in fact.

You've also assumed that everyone means "toy" pumps : as you doubtless know, there are quite large auto-models about. also assumed that all boats need many,manygallons before water comes over the floor. You couldn't imagine that a switch/alarm/pump might come on before this level?.

Enough already, you don't like them,that's clear.


Buckets for a roof leak ? why ever not?.


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Re: A cautious disagreement

To MailnlySteam...you some how seem to miss the point. I reiterate and agree an auto pump will not stop a vessel sinking if left unattended, however it has the capability to warn of immpending disaster should one be lucky enough to observe!!! Any commercial vessel I have sailed on in the past both Sail or motor has had them fitted and that for a reason. For your leaky old wooden boats I agree there is no solution to the problem and hence pointless fitting one.Twice in recent years at our marina a vessel has been saved because an observent berth holder noticed a bilge pump running on an unattended vessel and the ingress of water was found and stopped. As for electrolosis well thats another deate....please excuse my crap spelling

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Re: That\'s not the problem!

And as a real live example - our shower on board drains into a small sump tank from which a pump operated by a bilge type float switch pumps the grey water overboard. When the pump runs an indicator light comes on on the main DC panel. One morning got out of my bunk (no, I didn't find myself up to my knees in water!) and noticed that the pump indicator lamp was lit. 5 Minutes later it was still lit. Upon investigation in the bilge I could hear the pump running but only slowly.

The electrical connection of the cable back to the pump junction box to the float switch cable was made up with the wires soldered, each then having heavy duty adhesive lined shrink wrap over each conductor then the same over the whole. While the joint was in the tank, it was not submerged, just exposed to the damp environment.

In the space of around 4 years the inside of the adhesive lined heat shrink had become moist enough for an electrical current to flow from one conductor along under the adhesive lined heat shrink then back down under the heat shrink on the other cable to short out, albeit at high resistance, the float switch. There had obviously been an electrical leak for some time but only that morning sufficient to actually slowly run the pump motor. Fortunately the pump could run dry and also fortunately when leaving the boat we always isolate the batteries from everything else (apart from the solar battery charge maintenance) so could only have been a problem when we were on board. Also, our DC systems are entirely isolated from everything else on the boat (eg there is no bonding) so there could not have been any electrolysis in our own case (but it seems to me that many forumites cover their boats with zinc and tie everything together thus turning their boats into big batteries and then pat themselves on the back when they find the zincs not unexpectedly erode).

So, putting electrical systems in the bilge, even if of high quality professional installation, may in fact cause you the very type of flooding problem you don't want, such as a bonded metal thru hull or seacock failure through electrolysis from a positive side leak somewhere in the damp bilge, and which flooding will for sure be beyond the capability of a toy electric bilge pump. For such a catastrophic failure and the small boat sizes many posters have (small boats sink quickly), your boat will be on the bottom faster than any rescue of it can be organised.

We do, obviously, put electric submersibles in large vessels, but they are an entirely different situation in that the pumps are large, there are many of them, they are not for the purpose of protecting the vessel when unattended, and they have generators to run them.

I am not against submersible bilge pumps, but it does seem to me that many recreational boaters place misinformed trust in them or use them for the wrong reasons (eg to "fix" a leak).

John

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Re: That\'s not the problem!

We could go on about this till next year..we must all make our own decisions based on the knowledge and lessons we have learnt in the time we have spent at sea. The thing with boats and the sea is you will never stop learning...listen to others but act on your own intuition. Good and safe sailing to you, lets hope it will be flloding and electrolosis free!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: A cautious disagreement

<<<You've no idea how much or little water it'd take to come over the cabin floor,or how awkward/expensive it might be to prevent rain leaking in... >>>

Fine Andy, however, if you look at my bio I think you will see that I have a very good idea of these things.

Another poster states that such pumps are always fitted to the big boats hes been on - I have partly answered that in my last post, but I reiterate that those pumps are not there to protect the boat when unattended for long periods (Lloyds Special Service Craft Rules for such vessels, for example, requires only sufficient battery capacity to run the pumps for 5 hours). Those vessels also have damage stability criteria requiring subdivision of the hull (that will not be so with almost all forumites boats).

John

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Re: That\'s not the problem!

The original poster will undoubtedly make up his own mind as to whether he should be concerned about his Moody not being delivered with an auto bilge pump. Doubtless he has enough sense to weigh the advice of the professionals with that of the amateurs in reaching his decision.

John

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Re: A cautious disagreement

Fine John...

You haven't seen it so can only guess, however educated you think that may be.

Not all boats are well designed/finished or have even reasonably rain proof canopy details that can easily/at modest cost/not looking plug-ugly...be modified to cure the problem. Until I need a new cover, or fancy sealing all the joints between aluminium panels (well above the w/l) an auto bilge pump is the best solution; & it came with the boat,needing only a second battery so it wouldn't drain the engine starter. For £35 it was an easy choice & does the job perfectly without problems.



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Re: A cautious disagreement

Yes John have looked at your BIO, so what...when I related to the commercial vessels I have experiance of I was referring to Fishing vessels RNLI Lifeboats and large yachts. At the very worse one dead battery..or with a little luck a vessel saved by an observant fellow berth holder.

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Fix the leak ....

Apart from fitting an expensive cockpit cover, which I have no intention of doing ...... then please answer how do I stop my cockpit drains from blocking up and the water building up and filling my bilges ?

Sorry - but boats are boats, yes you can have many that are dry year after year, but many are not so lucky with silly drips or collection of condensation etc.

I don't hink anyone advocates the average chandlery pump for saving a boat from serious leaks. Even the girt big pump I have for my 1/4 tonner when she is re-launched each year and needs 6 hours to take up wouldn't save a boat with a serious leak. (Before anyone likes to comment on caulking my race boat - of carvel pine on oak - if I was to hard caulk her such as you see in some areas ..... my hull would split on the pressure as winter here is -20 C and summer is often +30. She is light caulked to allow expansion and contraction of the timbers ......during 6 hours in crane slings - let her fill up and then start pumping ..... for 2-3 days after empty about 10 - 20 litres per day out of her. 4th day dry.)

Auto-bilge pumps have a very good use - just remember their limitations.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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Re: That\'s not the problem!

Having watched the debate with interest I'm not sure I'm any wiser. I think I will probably do a quick calculation with my battery capacity to see how much volume an automatic pump can handle.

If it still means the boat sinks within a week (I usually only leave the boat unattended for a week), then I will probably not bother.

My gut feeling is that small leaks don't happen unexpectedly on a stationary boat. (whereas catastrophic, corrosion induced failure can), therefore I'll spot them before I leave the boat as I always take a quick peak in the bilges.

RB

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Pro\'s and Am\'s

A long standing experienced German Sea Captain .... intsructed me to lay a course AVOIDING Ampere Seamount in the Atlantic ...... the fact that there is about 1000 m of water over it seemed to be missed.

So advice of Professionals with that of the Amateurs ........ Hurumph ........ Hurumph ........ ???????!!!!!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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