Newbie seeking advice - Victoria 30 v Halmatic 30 v Nicholson 31

[PEEJAYSEA]

Hi

I am looking at the possibility of a first yacht purchase and woiuld appreciate some thoughts on the choices / variations between a Victoria 30 v Halmatic 30 v Nicholson 31.

I am keener on the more classic style of yacht rather than newer boats; am keen on long keel with a view to possible longer / ocean trips in the future or the possibility of the Jester Challenge in a few years. Wheel or tiller does not concern me.

I am also mindful of having read some of the advice in other threads about first purchase - upgrading after a few years etc v not biting off too much to chew!

Any thoughts / guidance / comments would be appreciated



Thanks
Paul

 

[lenseman]

. . . Any thoughts / guidance / comments would be appreciated

Hi Paul, welcome to the forums.

What sort of anchor will you be thinking of using?

 

[Tranona]

Victoria 30 is a more "modern" design with harder bilges and a canoe body. Bit less space with canoe stern and arguably more modern interior.

However, if you have decided on this style of boat, then it will almost certainly be more than 20, more likely 30 years old, so minor differences in design and performance disappear and condition and equipment become much more important. There are relatively few on the market at any given time so you might have to wait a long time to get one that matches your expectations - particularly if they are high!

 

[PEEJAYSEA]

?

There are relatively few on the market at any given time so you might have to wait


Does that mean that they are more difficult to sell or is it due to popularity that they don't come up that often

 

[Tranona]

There are relatively few on the market at any given time so you might have to wait


Does that mean that they are more difficult to sell or is it due to popularity that they don't come up that often

The latter. Very few (relatively) were built because then as now they are "niche" and expensive. People tend to keep them because little has been built in the last 20 years in similar style, so little opportunity to "trade up".

However, as you will find when you start looking that most that come on the market are well worn and are for sale because the owners have realised that the cost of bringing them up to a high standard exceeds the market value. Therefore the choice is either sell them on to some dreamy eyed person to take on or invest the money and keep the boat "forever".

A boat like the Victoria 30 would cost at least £120k to build to a basic standard today, so a SH one at £30k is 25% of replacement cost - but everything that needs replacing is costed in relation to £120k, not £30k. New engine, re-rigging, new sails and re-upholstery would easily add up to 50% of market value. All replacements of parts with a limited life span - not enhancements!

Hence my comment that condition and equipment is key. What you want is boat that a doting owner has just spent all the money on and dropped dead before using the boat (probably from the shock of how much it cost). Otherwise if you buy a well used boat then you have to expect high maintenance/replacement costs if you intend to use the boat to its potential - off setting the low capital cost.

 

[PEEJAYSEA]

Hence my comment that condition and equipment is key. What you want is boat that a doting owner has just spent all the money on and dropped dead before using the boat (probably from the shock of how much it cost). Otherwise if you buy a well used boat then you have to expect high maintenance/replacement costs if you intend to use the boat to its potential - off setting the low capital cost.

That being the case - and not wishing anyone to drop dead how much would one expect to have to spend, per month on looking after her? I hope that is not the dreaded piece of string question!

I guess what I am looking for is the price bracket for these types of boat - notwithstanding the age and potential for work. I do not want to fall into the trap of 50% for boat 50% for refit = bargin. I want to sail, tinker and get the experience (good and bad) of yacht ownership before thinking about trading up to perhaps a bigger baot and longer term ownership.

Cheers
Paul

 

[Tranona]

That being the case - and not wishing anyone to drop dead how much would one expect to have to spend, per month on looking after her? I hope that is not the dreaded piece of string question!

I guess what I am looking for is the price bracket for these types of boat - notwithstanding the age and potential for work. I do not want to fall into the trap of 50% for boat 50% for refit = bargin. I want to sail, tinker and get the experience (good and bad) of yacht ownership before thinking about trading up to perhaps a bigger baot and longer term ownership.

Cheers
Paul

Then this is probably not the sector of the market to be looking at. Although the type of boat you are looking at have good points they are not the kind of boat the vast majority of people buy.

You don't say what your budget is, but I guess up to around £30k. There are many more mainstream boats available in that price range that will do anything that you want to do. Going offshore is not the sole preserve of old fashioned style long keel boats.

Just about any more modern family boat such as a Westerly, Hunter, Sadler, Moody, or more recent Bennys, Jennys and Bavarias in the 28-32 ft size range will do the job of learning what coastal and offshore cruising is about. The advantage of this type of boat is that they tend to be newer, more spacious, easier to handle, easier to sell when the time comes to move on. More importantly perhaps, there is a much wider choice, simply because they were made in the hundreds rather than 10s. Once again it is condition and equipment that is most important rather than detail differences of design.

 

[PEEJAYSEA]

Then this is probably not the sector of the market to be looking at. Although the type of boat you are looking at have good points they are not the kind of boat the vast majority of people buy.

You don't say what your budget is, but I guess up to around £30k. There are many more mainstream boats available in that price range that will do anything that you want to do. Going offshore is not the sole preserve of old fashioned style long keel boats.

QUOTE]

Understood and hence the dilemma of a newbie! I have a reasonably open budget but as stated am not too sure to go for the "keep for a few years and get experience" or jump in at the deep end and go for the "as near as possible" dream boat!

I would prefer to keep away from "mainstream" but again understand that they will be easier to move on afterwards. I simply prefer the look and styling of the more 'classic look" and am even considering an wooden rather than GRP yacht......... which will raise yet more questions later!

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

Nicholson

I think you will find more used Nicholson 32s on the market than Nich 31s, and they even share the same owners association.

Boats over 20 years old vary so much in condition that you really need to judge not by model, but by individual sample. They can have been completely reworked, not restored at all, or restored badly - and as such the prices can and do vary greatly. I have seen Nich 32s for £14k or so, and very nicely restored ones over £30k. Mine fell somewhere in the middle of that, but included new standing rigging, good engine, and an "unmessed with" interior that avoided a lot of non-factory customization and was in decent shape. After that, I've probably put nearly £10k into her, but that included a bow thruster and shore power/charger, new batteries, and all new Raymarine cockpit instruments, as well as all new cushions below decks. She could use new sails when I get another £2800 to spend, and sometime soon she will probably need her epoxy treatment redone.

But these are all phased expenses, and some were probably unnecessary - I could have gotten NASA instruments at half the cost, the old cushions were usable in a pinch, and I only needed the bow thruster because we visit a lot of marinas (and keep her in one).

 

[Goldie]

Firstly, I've never sailed the Victoria or the Nicholson, although I like both. I owned a Halmatic 30 for 6 yrs/13000nm including a trip to the Med' in '92-'94. It's a great sea boat and reasonably quick for a boat of that type (we placed 2nd out of 600+ ISC Handicap boats in the 1991 RTIR) although it suffers from the long keel affliction of lack of manouvrability astern. The Halmatic evolved through the years having started life with twin settee berths (stbd would fold down to a double) and a stbd pilot berth. Later versions had a wrap round settee/double to stbd and dispensed with the pilot berth. As for the rig, Mk1s had a longer boom sheeted to the transom whilst Mk2s had a shorter boom which sheeted to the bridge deck track. The difference in mainsail area (from memory) was about 30 sq ft. The Mk 1 (like mine) could be heavy on the helm at about 16kts apparent althouigh this wasn't really true weather helm as the tiller was still only a few degrees of the centreline. The solution was to reef and by the time you had about 25-28kts apparent to windward (with suitably reefed sail areas) she pretty well sailed herself. Indeed, on one long trip upwind into a F6/7, the crew commented that she 'seemed to be yawing a bit'. It transpired that one of the steering lines to the Aries self steering had snapped and no one had noticed! The Mk2 I suspect, might be lighter on the helm in mid wind ranges, but maybe just slightly less good in very light airs with plain canvas. The outboard facing chart table works VERY well - although I was disappointed to see that not facing forward caused it to lose marks in the YM secondhand '100 Point' review - one reason I dislike that 'points' method of review is that so much is subjective.

I think you'd find the Nic'31 offering slightly more room, the Victoria (double ended of course) slightly less. The Victoria might offer a cutter rig if that 'floats your boat' too.
I don't think you'd be disappointed with any of your 3 choices, but may I suggest that you also consider the Barbican 30? This is essentially a Halmatic 30, updated, with different windows, encapsulated (and, I think) increased ballast, and a host of other mods. These boats were very nicely built by Mike Spry and his team at the now defunct Barbican Yachts and offer a newer alternative to the Halmatic albeit at slightly higher cost. The latter may be offset by lower hours engines, more recent kit etc. Have a look at http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/barbican-30/barbican-30.htm Good luck with your search!

 

[Tranona]

Understood and hence the dilemma of a newbie! I have a reasonably open budget but as stated am not too sure to go for the "keep for a few years and get experience" or jump in at the deep end and go for the "as near as possible" dream boat!

I would prefer to keep away from "mainstream" but again understand that they will be easier to move on afterwards. I simply prefer the look and styling of the more 'classic look" and am even considering an wooden rather than GRP yacht......... which will raise yet more questions later![/QUOTE]

It is indeed a dilemma.

Solved simply in my case by having two boats. One an old style long keel wooden boat, the other a Bavaria. Different purposes, different boats. I know the attraction of older style boats, but I think part of it is because they look like what you imagine a boat should look like. However, if they were so superior they would not have effectively disappeared from the market within 20 years of GRP superceding wood as the main hull material - and with it all the constraints on shape.

At the end of the day your choice depends on what you want to get out of the boat and if the aesthetics and "boatiness" are more important than efficiency and practicality then the three boats on your original list will do the job - if you can find one in good condition. However, if your objective is to learn about cruising to clarify what your real preferences are, then a mainstream boat could be more attractive.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I am looking at the possibility of a first yacht purchase and woiuld appreciate some thoughts on the choices / variations between a Victoria 30 v Halmatic 30 v Nicholson 31. (I've added Yachtsnet archive sites for all three. ÜGI)

I have had a Victoria 26 for a year now. Victorias are built like tanks and the workmanship is exceptionally high standard. That meant that they were extremely expensive when new: as a result relatively few were built and the combination of rarity and quality means that second hand ones are very dear. As a rough guide, you can expect to pay at least twice as much for a Victoria 26 as for a Westerly Centaur of the same age and general condition.

The same goes for the 30, I think. I idly toyed with the idea of getting one, but it would have strained the old finances unreasonably.

Unlike others, I'm not terribly bothered about buying an older boat. As long as it has had reasonable ongoing maintenance and you keep doing reasonable ongoing maintenance then you are not going to be hit by a wall of expense as soon as you buy. My engine has 951 hours on the clock, the sails are 6 years old and the rigging is 4 years old. I can live with that.

Dunno much about the Halmatic and the Nic 31 - though a friend had the latter and I sailed with him on her a couple of times. Seemed nice enough, though not my cup of tea in styling. Perhaps I was unreasonably prejudiced against 70's brown vinyl upholstery.

 

[PEEJAYSEA]

thanks

Thanks for all the inputs (and happy to get more as this drifts along)

I have been looking at yachtsnet and some of the owners sites to get info on the three - and will continue to trawl the web for further info.

Not too sure I would want to go down the route (at this stage!) of having two boats - but I guess what that does reinforce is that every boat is a compromise.

I read that you get as much info out of meeting the owner and seeing how they maintain etc their boat as you do from a survey! Part of the desire to do this is to learn - not only about the sailing - but about the maintenance etc. hopefull this will also get the whole family involved - swmbo loves DIY and No1 Son (7) just loves messing about on the water!

I am taken with the style of older boats but also understand that, like dinosaurs, they evolved into many of the "newer style" yachts that are often called AWB. I don't like the "AWB" saying but it is each to their own - its what makes the world go around!

I guess that maintenace and equipment levels are two of the big takeaways from this.....

I will keep looking (Barbican included) - any other suggestions??

Stupid question time - from a handling perspective - I understand that long keels = more difficult times in harbour / close confines etc, but what would the difference be with a "double ender" like the Vic 30?

Thanks
Paul

 

[jonic]

Hi Paul, welcome to the forums.

What sort of anchor will you be thinking of using?

Sorry, off topic and of no use to the poster or thread....but that made me laugh out loud

 

[LeonF]

I have owned a Victoria 800 for six years. I started with a Fantasie 19, a triple keeler, went to a Sigma 33, racer adapted with cruising aids, then reverted to a 26 footer. I had always loved the Frances 26, the first manifestation of the Victoria 800, at my very first boat show when I couln't even afford a second hand Wayfarer.
IN many ways I find it more user friendly than the Sigma 33. One can cook in a seaway, wedged between the heads and the cooker. There is more locker stowage in the cockpit. The Sigma was faster and had a lovely motion as befits it's longer waterline. The Vic can be spun aorund with warps, at least the 26 footers can, if you need to reposition when leaving an awkward berth. Have a look at the association website. www.victoriashadow.co.uk. I have never found the going astern a problem, once you get used to it. The stern will seek the wind when revesing into it, you just need to learn how she reacts. There is a fully restored Frances 26 on the website, you could do worse than buying it as a starter boat, especially if you have some knowledge of sailing.
Boat prices seem to have fallen everywhere..Once one couldn't buy a Vic 30 for less than 40K, now a really good one might go for 35K. When I bought my 800 there were three on the market, now there is but one. Ditto for many of the Westerlys and other marks.

 

[Goldie]

I will keep looking (Barbican included) - any other suggestions??

Other suggestions? If price and size meet your requirements, the Nicholson 35 is a fantastic sailing boat with a slightly more modern hull shape (long fin and skeg); others that spring to mind include Vancouver 27/274/28 and 32, or how about Twister (an all time classic) and the Rustler 31?

To answer your question about the difference of a double-ender under power, I'd suggest not a lot. Below the waterline, the shape will be much the same I'd suggest.

 

[donm]

I've owned a Halmatic 30 for the last 4 years - never had cause to regret it, and can confirm everything that Goldie has said, although I have not done the mileage that he has. As for going astern, you can usually organise yourself so that you don't have to do it, but if in a tight spot it is also possible to turn the boat 180 on the spot with judicious use of prop walk, and this can get you out of trouble.
And if you like good looking boats, this one seems to attract a lot of compliments. Previous boats include Trapper 500, Ecume de Mer and a Laurent Giles Normandy, but the Halmatic is the best by some margin.

 

[Bajansailor]

I have scanned copies of my Halmatic and Barbican 30 builder's catalogues - if anybody would like copies, please PM me with an email address.
I also have a couple of pages scanned from a general Victoria catalogue re the 30, and I even have a Nic 31 catalogue somewhere, but not scanned yet - if anybody is keen I will scan it.

Re long keels, you could perhaps also consider the Warrior / Voyager / Challenger 30 - here is a link to the Voyager in the Yachtsnet archive : http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/voyager-30/voyager-30.htm

 

[LeonF]

The underwater profile is different on the Vic /Frances 26 from other long keelers, in that it is less of a wineglass, with a defined point where the hull meets the keel. I suspect the Vics might sail slightly better and faster Vancouvers. Never sailed one myself but remember talking to someone who had owned one who didn't like it's motion. He said Vancouver had told him that they were designed for long voyages, to be loaded with a 1000 tins of baked beans.
Surveyor some years ago also recommended the Nic 31. Trouble is, he said, most of the skippers were getting on a bit and have probably spent the last few years sitting on board in port drinking cups of tea, so most would need an extensive re-fit. He did however think they were good boats. I do wonder if the original poster is getting a bit hung up on the boat, the perfect boat etc. Why not sign on for courses, sail some sailing school boats, do some chartering, to get some idea of what you might really like.

 

[Monique]

PBO has a great article covering 11 30 footers of the late 60's and 70's.

Read the article.

I, for one, would seriously consider a Dufour Arpege... if I was looking to downsize..!