yachtorion
Well-Known Member
Why does a second hand Moody 376 or big Westerly cost almost as much as, and a Moody 38 more than a brand new similar size BenJanBav?
New vs Second Hand
- Thread starter yachtorion
- Start date
30boat
N/A
I'd rather hit something with a Westerly than a BenJanBav.
theoldsalt
Well-Known Member
In my opinon it is because of the superior construction and design. I have stuck with Moody & Westerly for decades. I did consider a "BenJanBav" for a short while and even though I was offered examples only 3 or 4 years old in immaculate condition I still ended up with a large 25 year old Moody.
I like a centre cockpit giving a roomy aft cabin and a conventional corner galley. I dislike aft cockpit with poky under cockpit berths and a linear galley in the saloon is totally useless for cooking at sea. The "BenJanBav"s may be faster size for size but to me they are more tender and the inside layout seems to be designed for marina living.
I think many others are like minded and that is why Moody and Westerly boats hold their price well in the used market.
I like a centre cockpit giving a roomy aft cabin and a conventional corner galley. I dislike aft cockpit with poky under cockpit berths and a linear galley in the saloon is totally useless for cooking at sea. The "BenJanBav"s may be faster size for size but to me they are more tender and the inside layout seems to be designed for marina living.
I think many others are like minded and that is why Moody and Westerly boats hold their price well in the used market.
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jwilson
Well-Known Member
They don't: absolute top end price for a good Moody 376 is in the £70Ks, most will go for maybe £50-60K. By the time you add in delivery, commissioning and the sort of bits of kit that most used boats come with (sprayhood, some electronics etc) you will struggle to get a new 30-footer on the water.
The new 'mass-production' boat market is currently focussing on keeping "headline price" down by making almost everything an extra - on some new Beneteau Oceanis's the forward bulkhead is an extra, as are lockers for your clothes in the cabins. The most extreme of these stripped-down boats are the Variantas.
For ordinary coastal pottering and passagemaking there are benefits to both sides: the new boats are - well - new - you have a ten-ish year window when you should not have any major expense on renewing kit, and they are nice and shiny. Most mass-market new boats sail pretty well in light winds, tolerably well in moderate winds, and in (ordinary coastal) heavy weather will be absolute sods - but will get there if they have to, though your teeth might be loose from the slamming.
The older boats - your typical Moody/Westerly: many will be at the age when major system items may need renewing, sails, rigging, furler, engine, headlining, upholstery, tanks. They will be duller to sail in the sort of light wind sunny days when everyone wants to be sailing, come into their own in moderate winds, and in stronger conditions they will still be uncomfortable, though they will slam a lot less.
Fendant
Well-Known Member
Older sturdy heavy boat:
+ behaves better in agitated sea conditions
+ generally well equipped, everything you need
+ any flaws fixed
- slower
- most equipment ( sails, canvas, engine, electronics ! ) at the end of the lifetime
- spares still available, suppliers still alive
- comfort under deck ( heater, warm, water )
- increasing requirement for holding tanks, expensive to fit, small
- will have a more humid environment under deck and water in bilge
New fast cruiser boat:
+ 2 year warranty
+ brand new state of the art electronics and engine ( yes some people still like their seagulls )
+ can be fitted with asymmetric sails, easy reefing
+ fast, new sails with modern cloth
+spacier cockpit and cabin
+ comfort below deck ( fridge, heater, warm water, space, shower ......... )
- higher acquisition price
- some flaws need to be fixed (not the brand, the dealer makes the difference !! )
- will loose value in the 1st years
- dry under deck and in bilge
-/+ additional equipment according to personal taste can be fitted as you gain experience with your boat
Summary: both Solutions have pro's and con's .
The lower purchase price and lower resale value loss from an oldie may outweigh the risc that something expensive breaks.
I personally went for a new Hanse instead of an older Halberg Rassy two years ago after spending to many hours fixing things on my 1989 boat.
+ behaves better in agitated sea conditions
+ generally well equipped, everything you need
+ any flaws fixed
- slower
- most equipment ( sails, canvas, engine, electronics ! ) at the end of the lifetime
- spares still available, suppliers still alive
- comfort under deck ( heater, warm, water )
- increasing requirement for holding tanks, expensive to fit, small
- will have a more humid environment under deck and water in bilge
New fast cruiser boat:
+ 2 year warranty
+ brand new state of the art electronics and engine ( yes some people still like their seagulls )
+ can be fitted with asymmetric sails, easy reefing
+ fast, new sails with modern cloth
+spacier cockpit and cabin
+ comfort below deck ( fridge, heater, warm water, space, shower ......... )
- higher acquisition price
- some flaws need to be fixed (not the brand, the dealer makes the difference !! )
- will loose value in the 1st years
- dry under deck and in bilge
-/+ additional equipment according to personal taste can be fitted as you gain experience with your boat
Summary: both Solutions have pro's and con's .
The lower purchase price and lower resale value loss from an oldie may outweigh the risc that something expensive breaks.
I personally went for a new Hanse instead of an older Halberg Rassy two years ago after spending to many hours fixing things on my 1989 boat.
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bedouin
Well-Known Member
In terms of depreciation GRP boats are more like houses and cars. Provided that you keep up the maintenance then there is no reason why a 40 year old boat should not be every bit as good now as it was when it was launched. Therefore the price of older boats is driven pretty much entirely by the market - and up until recently it was the case that a quality second hand boat would not depreciate (in £ terms) and you would always get back what you paid for it.
pvb
Well-Known Member
As jwilson said, they don't! You'll pay £55K or so for a Moody 376 in the UK. By the time you've added essential extras such as instruments, plotter, radar, autopilot, inmast furling, bowthruster, upgraded engine, hot water, sprayhood, heating, etc, to the basic spec, you'll pay around £125K for a new Bavaria 37 and rather more for a new Jeanneau 379.
The belief that old boats are somehow "heavier construction" is also flawed. A Moody 376 weighs around 7 tons; a new Bavaria 37 weighs around 7 tons. There's just as much fibreglass in new boats, and importantly it's properly designed and engineered for strength.
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KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>and up until recently it was the case that a quality second hand boat would not depreciate (in £ terms) and you would always get back what you paid for it.
It has been a buyers market since the recession began and still is.
It has been a buyers market since the recession began and still is.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
Same reason an HR costs way more new than e BenJenBav. Partly its quality that you pay for and partly its simply the same sort of prejudice / brand image / whatever that makes a BMW worth more than a Ford. And dont forget depreciation
macd
Well-Known Member
re the soilidity of Westerlies: this is prejudice on small evidence, I have to admit. But ever since reading Voyage for Madmen, I've never quite got it out of my head that Westerly were so tuned-in to their own boats that they thought a 30-foot bilgie was suitable for John Ridegway to race around the Southern Ocean. He was desperately lucky not to get that far.
laika
Well-Known Member
I was having a look at 41-ish foot boats at the boat show. *base* price for the cheapest ones (never mind anything like the new moody 41) is more than twice the value of my Oceanlord. If offered the choice between my boat and the new boat, I'd take the new boat, sell it, buy mine back and trouser the difference. Equipment on your second hand boat isn't necessarily at end of life: If it is you negotiate it in the price. It's likely though that a 20-something year old boat will have had its equipment renewed once or more already. Moreover it's handy to have tired old kit which just about works for a while while you sail about and decide what new stuff would work for you and your boat rather than having to choose before you get to know it. Your second hand boat will also probably come with bits and pieces which would probably amount to thousands to buy new which don't *need* to be new.
I don't have any romantic attachment to old boats and I think the virtues compared with newer ones are often over-stated. Having sailed Jeanneaus on delivery in "interesting" conditions I have no concerns about them not being robust enough for anything I'd want to be out in. I don't think you'd want to take a Westerly or Moody anywhere you'd be daft to take an AWB. However having looked at newer boats I'll take mine thanks. I *like* a chart table. I don't need loads of light below: I have that outside where I prefer being*. I *like* having more locker space at the expense of living space.
Westerly at least have huge owners' association with Trafalgar Yachts in Fareham specialising in spares etc. for them so it's not like you're on your own if anything breaks.
*Note: slightly rethinking that as a UK-based liveaboard, but living aboard in the UK is a bad plan to begin with.
I don't have any romantic attachment to old boats and I think the virtues compared with newer ones are often over-stated. Having sailed Jeanneaus on delivery in "interesting" conditions I have no concerns about them not being robust enough for anything I'd want to be out in. I don't think you'd want to take a Westerly or Moody anywhere you'd be daft to take an AWB. However having looked at newer boats I'll take mine thanks. I *like* a chart table. I don't need loads of light below: I have that outside where I prefer being*. I *like* having more locker space at the expense of living space.
Westerly at least have huge owners' association with Trafalgar Yachts in Fareham specialising in spares etc. for them so it's not like you're on your own if anything breaks.
*Note: slightly rethinking that as a UK-based liveaboard, but living aboard in the UK is a bad plan to begin with.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
They did around 12 - 15 years ago but not now. We paid £65k for a 376 12 years ago which was about the same price as a basic new Bav or similar then. Around £20k spent over the years upgrading (new engine, radar, bimini, solar, fridge, elec windlass, liferaft, dinghy etc.) and still worth about the same price as we paid or less.
You won't buy a new similar sized/equipped boat for anything like that price, just add up the optional extras.
macd
Well-Known Member
Perhaps one of the reasons you might get more with a Moody/Westerly than a Bav/Ben is that the price for the latter included a profit whereas with the former the boat sold new at less than cost? :ambivalence:
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IMO, people who worry about depreciation should stay the hell away from boats.
No-one ever got rich owning a boat. Regardless of the make or age.
I own a boat to sail it. If owning/sailing a boat costs money, so be it.
You can't take it with you and it is not my intention to end up as the richest cropse in the graveyard.
[/rant]
yachtorion
Well-Known Member
Having looked into the price lists in more detail... yup even real basics like spring cleats (kinda necessary on a 34+ foot boat IMHO are optional extras. One website suggests that your £55k boat will end up costing well over £100k.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
I agree!
I sold my 1976 Westerly Centaur three years ago and bought a little used 1973 Wauquiez Centurion 32 that I had been patiently waiting to come on the market for more than ten years. The only reason that I changed was that I consider the Centurion one of the prettiest boats that there are. I was more than happy with my Centaur; I could have bought a new BenJenBav but I prefer the Centurion and, so far, I have not been disappointed.
I don't think that anyone can look at a boat as an investment and, at my age, I have no intention of ever getting a different boat. As you say, quite correctly, boats are for sailing and I am looking forward to next June's trip to Sicily and then to Lampedusa later on in the year.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Well said! Get the best yacht you can afford to buy, use it, enjoy it, leave your executors to worry about depreciation and IHT.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
I have never yet sold a boat for less than I originally paid for it and in two cases have made almost 10% profit - before counting maintenance during ownership. I suspect my record is going to go to the dogs this time, mind you. Its not a Moody or Westerly by the way.
But the issue with depreciation is that the older Moody / Westerly are largely depreciated whereas if you buy a new Bav you will take a bath in the first few years.
No argument from me there.
However, an older boat will have done most of its depreciating, she will most likely require repairs/upgrades. And when it comes to selling it on, it will be hard/impossible to recover those costs.
Q: how do can you make a small fortune in boating?
A: start with a large fortune
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