KINGFISHER 9
Well-known member
I've just ordered a new (motor) boat from Beneteau ... by the time I'd added the options to make the boat both usable and comfortable the price doubled!
New Viko 35 for Euro 53,900
- Thread starter Toutvabien
- Start date
savageseadog
Well-known member
Keel?
doug748
Well-known member
"CE Category - A/B"
So possibly more at home on a Polish lake or the Solent.
So possibly more at home on a Polish lake or the Solent.
pvb
Well-known member
Are you suggesting the "Ocean" and "Offshore" ratings aren't genuine?
lpdsn
New member
Very unlikely. Say what you will about Bavaria they still churn out boats very efficiently. A new competitor would have to come in at a significant volume to compete and it is pretty near impossible that anyone would invest enough money for that. People might pay twice the price for a specialist marque like HR or Rustler but they're not going to do it for an AWB. Look what happened to that GT35 (if I've got the name right) - it wasn't good enough to compete with HR and it wasn't cheap enough to compete with Bavaria or Beneteau.
pvb
Well-known member
And they still haven't sold the only one they built!
jwilson
Well-known member
I used to say the same, till I was on deck (yelling at the helm to tack - he tried and failed to bear away enough) on a 43 ft Beneteau Oceanis that T-boned a 24-footer. 24-footer holed from near waterline to mast base. Beneteau a few scratches and a flattened 2" stainless anchor well drain cover.
Frogmogman
Well-known member
It's an interesting one. Is it possible to compete with the likes of Bénéteau, Bavaria or Hanse head on ? Almost certainly not; the trick is to identify a niche and come up with something original to fill it.
In France, away from the mainstream of the Bénéteau group, there are a number of small builders proving very adept at offering something quite different to what the big builders provide, and who seem to have very healthy order books. I'm thinking in particular of Fora marine (builders of the RM range), Structures (builders of the Pogo range), IDB Marine (builders of the Malango boats) and JPK Composites.
OK, the JPK's are aimed squarely at IRC racing, but the latest Pogos and RMs, designed by Finot Conq and Marc Lombard respectively, may seem to draw inspiration from their successful Mini Transat/IMOCA 60 designs, yet in both cases they were designed with absolutely no concessions to racing handicaps, but purely as high performance cruising yachts.
As I have previously mentioned on this forum, I'm a huge fans of both builders. In particular I'm full of admiration for the way RMs are engineered for production. The whole build process is incredibly well thought through, and their ply epoxy hulls are extremely light, yet very robust. They may seem a little spartan to some eyes, but their light weight offers excellent performance (particularly off the wind), with plenty of space and a stylish modern look.
I'm not saying that this particular niche is one that would necessarily work in the UK. It may be that the French national obsession with single & short handed offshore racing has made these yachts strike a chord with the French public. What is for sure is that these builders are offering something a bit different, all of the boats I've mentioned above have real character, and are quite single minded in what they offer.
Vive la différence !!
Tranona
Well-known member
Not uncommon for boats of this size to be either A or B and the difference may not be due to stability. For example a Rustler 33 can be either depending on the level of gear (items such as guard rails are optional) It could also be a difference in keel with a drop keel perhaps being in B. In the case of the smallest Hanse, Beneteau, Bavaria (32-34' nominally) they are A or B depending on the number of crew.
boatboat
New member
Yes I'm also an admirer of these niche French builders. They all build fast and light boats which seems to bring many advantages. ie Less material required, very good design, optimised build processes, subcontracting etc.
RM for example get someone else to build the galleys and then just drop them in fait accompli.
JPK interiors are mostly moulded, a sea of GRP.
All means they can produce vaguely affordable boats. However I think most Brit buyers prefer the Scandinavian interiors, Arcona, X-yachts etc. so not sure if it would work here.
snooks
Active member
And yet there are still thousands of French boats of that era on the water today....
James W
Active member
A brand new 35 footer for £47,700? Can you really go wrong at that price?
roblpm
Well-known member
Would be interesting for someone to do a review in terms of the hull build and performance. My 25 year old boat has had a lot of things replaced. Buying old boats really costs a fortune anyway if you end up replacing engine, sails etc. So is this thing a good building block to get up to spec over a number of years? Or is the fundamental base too cheap!?!
snooks
Active member
There are no bargains, money will be saved, probably in the interior fit out and specifications.
The only ways mfgs can save money and not have an effect on quality is by bulk buying and staff costs.
Everything else is a compromise between price and quality. It's up to the buyer to decide where their priorities lie and whether what they want in a boat aligns with what they want the boat they are buying to do and how long they expect it to last.
The only ways mfgs can save money and not have an effect on quality is by bulk buying and staff costs.
Everything else is a compromise between price and quality. It's up to the buyer to decide where their priorities lie and whether what they want in a boat aligns with what they want the boat they are buying to do and how long they expect it to last.
lw395
Well-known member
Much truth in that, but...
Some wages are quite low in Poland.
Industrial property is not as expensive as in the UK.
There are EU grants for new industry.
Poland AIUI, also produces some pretty good racing dinghies, they have the technology.
Sometimes with things like this, there is not much saving to be made by making it badly. The trick is in designing things that work well and are cheaper to make. I've worked with some East EU engineers who are notably good at that.
ISTR looking at a similar sized boat for a similar headline price many years ago.
That price did not include, VAT, Delivery, VAT on the delivery, delivery of the VAT and quite a lot of other stuff.
Ready to race in Southampton, the bottom line was a lot more.
roblpm
Well-known member
Seem to be showing 4 boats at dusseldorf. £30 return from Edinburgh on ryanair! Though flight times mean only one day at show and the flights are to weeze which is miles away!! Mulling up whether I can be bothered!!!!
lpdsn
New member
And volume of sales. I was told by a designer who worked on part of one 39 footer that the tooling (i.e. the moulds etc.) cost over a million. The more boats that is spread across the less it affects the cost.
roblpm
Well-known member
Yes. If you compare an x yacht to a bavaria I wonder what percentage of the price differences is due to quality and what is due to the benefits of scale.
lpdsn
New member
I have no doubt Bavaria gain from economy of scale as well as deliberately adjusting manufacturing details to make them economic to produce. If they wanted I'm sure they could produce MABs cheaper than anyone else, but who would buy them?
The small volume builders have to up the quality as otherwise they couldn't justify the price differential.
Tranona
Well-known member
Exactly right. To put this bargain basement boat into perspective, in 2015 the Bavaria Easy 9.9 (which was a basic 33) had an ex factory price of under 55k euros - much the same as this new boat and my 33 was just over 70k euros which translated into £56k ex works. Delivery and commissioning were £7500, extras came to £18k so with VAT the total cost was just shy of £100k.
Incidentally the Easy version failed to attract buyers and only lasted for 2 seasons. None of the "budget" boats from any builder have been a success. New boat buyers seem to want well equipped boats and if they can't afford a new boat to the standard they want then plenty of good used boats within their budget.