New (used) boat. Keep Part 1 or switch to SSR?

Tradewinds

Tradewinds

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www.laurelberrystudio.com
Potential new (used) boat is Part 1 registered.

Cost to change ownership is £80 Part 1, £25 for SSR.

Are there any downsides to switching to SSR?

Or is it better to stick with Part 1?

Single owner, no finance involved, boat will be used UK and near continent (ie not some far-flung destination on the other side of the world).

TIA :encouragement:
 
Tradewinds said:
Potential new (used) boat is Part 1 registered.

Cost to change ownership is £80 Part 1, £25 for SSR.

Are there any downsides to switching to SSR?

Or is it better to stick with Part 1?

Single owner, no finance involved, boat will be used UK and near continent (ie not some far-flung destination on the other side of the world).

TIA :encouragement:
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Keep Part 1. It is a register of title and any future owner may well place some value on it. Very expensive put it back on in the future as you will need a survey. An extra £10 or so a year is a small price to pay.
 
Tranona said:
Keep Part 1. It is a register of title and any future owner may well place some value on it. Very expensive put it back on in the future as you will need a survey. An extra £10 or so a year is a small price to pay.
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Absolutely agree - I would go so far as to say Part 1 definitely adds value when you go to sell it and would make a private sale far easier without the need to pay a broker.
 
macd said:
The certificate expressly says it is not proof of ownership.
It's true that application for Part 1 (including transfer) must be accompanied by evidence of ownership, but the MCA can scarcely be expected to vouch for events beyond that date.
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The Certificate document in itself is not proof of ownership. Absolutely correct. But the certificate says "Current ownership and mortgage details must be obtained from the Registrar" and unless I am gravely mistaken [wouldn't be the first time] the Registrar can confirm ownership of vessels on Part 1.
The website https://www.gov.uk/register-a-boat/the-uk-ship-register says
Part I registration

"Register your boat on the Part I register if you want to:

prove you own the boat
prove your boat’s nationality
use the boat as security for a marine mortgage
register a pleasure vessel
get ‘transcripts of registry’, which show the boat’s previous owners and whether there are any outstanding mortgages"
 
The distinction is between the terms "ownership" and "title" and the registration is registering title. That is why you need the Bill of Sale as that records the change in title - that is it is signed by the person who has title to sell, and that person may not be the owner - although in most cases it is the same person(s). It is this Bill of Sale that you are registering.

Suggest you read the material on the RYA site about shared ownership as it explains the differences much better than I can in a few words.

In most cases the distinction is not an issue to a buyer as it will be clear from other documentation together with registration that the seller is both owner and has title to sell.

Just as an example of situations where the two may not be the same, my charter boat was registered in the name of the management company which gave it the title to sell, but my ownership rights were acquired through a contract with the management company.
 
Tranona said:
The distinction is between the terms "ownership" and "title" and the registration is registering title. That is why you need the Bill of Sale as that records the change in title - that is it is signed by the person who has title to sell, and that person may not be the owner - although in most cases it is the same person(s). It is this Bill of Sale that you are registering.

Suggest you read the material on the RYA site about shared ownership as it explains the differences much better than I can in a few words.

In most cases the distinction is not an issue to a buyer as it will be clear from other documentation together with registration that the seller is both owner and has title to sell.

Just as an example of situations where the two may not be the same, my charter boat was registered in the name of the management company which gave it the title to sell, but my ownership rights were acquired through a contract with the management company.
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If you don't mind me saying so I think you are making a relatively straight forward matter unduly complicated. If the boat is registered under Part 1 and you are buying the boat from the the person listed as the owner on the Register then you can be absolutely certain about ownership and you don't need to worry about previous Bills of Sale or anything else. If the boat is being offered for sale by someone other than the registered owner then you have a problem and the ownership situation needs to be regularised with the Registry before you take another step.
 
Irish Rover said:
If you don't mind me saying so I think you are making a relatively straight forward matter unduly complicated. If the boat is registered under Part 1 and you are buying the boat from the the person listed as the owner on the Register then you can be absolutely certain about ownership and you don't need to worry about previous Bills of Sale or anything else.
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You are assuming the sellers to be honest. They may well have used the boat as security against a loan or debt and not registered that with the registry.
 
GrahamM376 said:
You are assuming the sellers to be honest. They may well have used the boat as security against a loan or debt and not registered that with the registry.
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That doesn’t alter what I posted one iota. I’m not a lawyer and I’m not qualified to say if a a creditor of the seller could enforce an unregistered security on a boat purchased in good faith by a seller having made the necessary enquiries with the Registry but I doubt it.
 
Irish Rover said:
If you don't mind me saying so I think you are making a relatively straight forward matter unduly complicated. If the boat is registered under Part 1 and you are buying the boat from the the person listed as the owner on the Register then you can be absolutely certain about ownership and you don't need to worry about previous Bills of Sale or anything else. If the boat is being offered for sale by someone other than the registered owner then you have a problem and the ownership situation needs to be regularised with the Registry before you take another step.
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I have already said that in most cases the two things are the same, but there are many potential cases where they are not. That is why there is a distinction. The MCA does not know the owners - it only knows the person (or corporation) that registered the title.

So, for most transactions it is simple, but if behind the person claiming title there other persons who have an ownership interest it can become complicated. That is why I directed you to the RYA material on shared ownership which explains potential complications. As an example, in simple terms a syndicate owned boat could have the title registered in the names of all the members showing their shares. This is straightforward as all have to sign the BofS so you know you have clear title. Much the same with boats like mine which have two owners, myself and my wife. On the other hand many syndicates are structured so that the title is registered to one member and the ownership structure is governed by a separate agreement. In this case a potential buyer will not see all the owners, so essential that he finds out that there is a robust agreement confirming that the registered title owner has title to sell. Not difficult to imagine what might happen if the boat is sold without all the owners knowing.

So the level of complication reflects the level of complexity of the ownership. This is one of the reasons why it is prudent to carry out due diligence - something that a broker is supposed to do (and most do) when they are handling a transaction.
 
Tradewinds said:
Potential new (used) boat is Part 1 registered.

Cost to change ownership is £80 Part 1, £25 for SSR.

Are there any downsides to switching to SSR?

Or is it better to stick with Part 1?

Single owner, no finance involved, boat will be used UK and near continent (ie not some far-flung destination on the other side of the world).

TIA :encouragement:
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I'm not 100% sure but I think that if you cancel or fail to renew your Part 1 registration you lose the right to reserve the current name of your boat. If you later decide to re-register it, you may find someone has taken that name. As I said, I'm not 100% sure about that but it may be worth checking.
 
Tranona said:
I have already said that in most cases the two things are the same, but there are many potential cases where they are not. That is why there is a distinction. The MCA does not know the owners - it only knows the person (or corporation) that registered the title.

So, for most transactions it is simple, but if behind the person claiming title there other persons who have an ownership interest it can become complicated. That is why I directed you to the RYA material on shared ownership which explains potential complications. As an example, in simple terms a syndicate owned boat could have the title registered in the names of all the members showing their shares. This is straightforward as all have to sign the BofS so you know you have clear title. Much the same with boats like mine which have two owners, myself and my wife. On the other hand many syndicates are structured so that the title is registered to one member and the ownership structure is governed by a separate agreement. In this case a potential buyer will not see all the owners, so essential that he finds out that there is a robust agreement confirming that the registered title owner has title to sell. Not difficult to imagine what might happen if the boat is sold without all the owners knowing.

So the level of complication reflects the level of complexity of the ownership. This is one of the reasons why it is prudent to carry out due diligence - something that a broker is supposed to do (and most do) when they are handling a transaction.
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As I said in my previous post I’m not a lawyer and I think you’re not either so not unusually we have two Wardroom lawyers pontificating on something they’re not qualified to do. Maybe one of the real lawyers would oblige us with an opinion. In the meantime I’ll put my neck on the line and say that a person buying a boat on part one will have nothing to worry about if they check with the Registry and then ensure that the Bill of Sale is signed by all the persons listed as owners in the Register and there being no registered liens or mortgages. They don’t need to worry about unregistered partners.
 
Irish Rover said:
As I said in my previous post I’m not a lawyer and I think you’re not either so not unusually we have two Wardroom lawyers pontificating on something they’re not qualified to do. Maybe one of the real lawyers would oblige us with an opinion. In the meantime I’ll put my neck on the line and say that a person buying a boat on part one will have nothing to worry about if they check with the Registry and then ensure that the Bill of Sale is signed by all the persons listed as owners in the Register and there being no registered liens or mortgages. They don’t need to worry about unregistered partners.
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Without wishing to make too much of a meal of this, you have to recognise that there is no certainty about ownership of a boat simply because there is no legal obligation to register it anywhere, nor is there any independent, verifiable record of its existence or ownership (in the UK at least). The MCA register is totally reliant on the Bill of Sale record as it is just a register of that, and now only requires 5 year's history. A Bill of Sale is a self declaration document with no need to get it notarised for example. The witness is only confirming it was signed by the person who claimed to have title to transfer. There is no compulsion to register any changes, so when you do a search with the registry what you get is the last recorded entry. In most cases this will be a true reflection of the situation, but it is wise to look for other evidence including the previous Bills of Sale so that you have a continuous history and showing that the person claiming current title was the same as the person on the previous BofS.

So, the register is just reducing the level of uncertainty but not giving absolute certainty. You are wrong in thinking that owners whose names are not on the register do not have a potential ownership claim. It may be difficult for them to enforce the claim, but that will depend on the specifics of the case.

Just consider a couple of other situations where title is distinct from ownership. Executors have title to sell the estate's assets, but they do not own them, and their powers are constrained by the terms of the will and the probate process. So if buying from an estate one would want to ensure that the executor is in a position to transfer title. Similarly if the boat is owned by a trust, the trustee(s) may have title but not ownership so wise to ensure that they are acting according within the terms of the trust.

Like many things to do with law, much of this is not visible to the layman as the vast majority of transactions are straightforward. But that does not mean they do not exist and are there to regulate our everyday transactions.
 
As I said on another thread there is a lot of chaff being launched and flying around here which only serves to confuse what is a simple issue and is in danger of being labelled scaremongering. I repeat what I said at #10 above "If the boat is registered under Part 1 and you are buying the boat from the the person listed as the owner on the Register then you can be absolutely certain about ownership and you don't need to worry about previous Bills of Sale or anything else". Tranona says there is no compulsion to register any changes but this is not true. You are required by law to do so. There may well be theoretical, hypothetical situations where someone other than the person listed as owner on the Register may have a claim but in the real world this is not something a buyer should be worried about. There is a risk attached to almost everything we do but in the context of buying a boat then the most secure procedure is buying a boat on Part 1 where the seller are the same person as those listed as owners in the Register.
 
Irish Rover said:
As I said on another thread there is a lot of chaff being launched and flying around here which only serves to confuse what is a simple issue and is in danger of being labelled scaremongering. I repeat what I said at #10 above "If the boat is registered under Part 1 and you are buying the boat from the the person listed as the owner on the Register then you can be absolutely certain about ownership and you don't need to worry about previous Bills of Sale or anything else". Tranona says there is no compulsion to register any changes but this is not true. You are required by law to do so. There may well be theoretical, hypothetical situations where someone other than the person listed as owner on the Register may have a claim but in the real world this is not something a buyer should be worried about. There is a risk attached to almost everything we do but in the context of buying a boat then the most secure procedure is buying a boat on Part 1 where the seller are the same person as those listed as owners in the Register.
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Please quote me the law that says you have to register any changes. Many yacht owners don't register their title when they buy a boat or let registration lapse. There is no penalty. There is no requirement to register title AT ALL.

As I said the register reduces the uncertainty about ownership but it does not necessarily eliminate it. It is, however MORE secure than buying an unregistered boat which is why it has value. However as I have explained already there are many situations where ownership may not be the same as legal title and that owners can have a claim on the boat even if the title is registered to someone else.

It is not scaremongering, just something to be aware of if you are buying a boat that does not have a "conventional" ownership pattern. It would be naive to expect a voluntary system of registration that relies on self declaring documents of title to a boat to be definitive. Pretty conclusive when you have a complete trail from the builder to the present day documenting all the changes in ownership, but how many boats have this? particularly now the register does not require all those documents as a condition of registration.

If you don't want to believe what I am saying, suggest you read the advice on the RYA site (or in their book on the subject) covering buying secondhand boats and the ins and outs of checking title. The sections on dealing with inheriting boats and shared ownership, for example, will give you an idea of the potential problems that can occur. You do not have to be a qualified lawyer to understand the underlying legal principles nor to recognise the limitations of registration system in this country.
 
Keep it on Part 1 but allow a good couple of months for your new certificate to come through (if my experience is anything to go by).
 
Tranona said:
Please quote me the law that says you have to register any changes. Many yacht owners don't register their title when they buy a boat or let registration lapse. There is no penalty. There is no requirement to register title AT ALL.

As I said the register reduces the uncertainty about ownership but it does not necessarily eliminate it. It is, however MORE secure than buying an unregistered boat which is why it has value. However as I have explained already there are many situations where ownership may not be the same as legal title and that owners can have a claim on the boat even if the title is registered to someone else.

It is not scaremongering, just something to be aware of if you are buying a boat that does not have a "conventional" ownership pattern. It would be naive to expect a voluntary system of registration that relies on self declaring documents of title to a boat to be definitive. Pretty conclusive when you have a complete trail from the builder to the present day documenting all the changes in ownership, but how many boats have this? particularly now the register does not require all those documents as a condition of registration.

If you don't want to believe what I am saying, suggest you read the advice on the RYA site (or in their book on the subject) covering buying secondhand boats and the ins and outs of checking title. The sections on dealing with inheriting boats and shared ownership, for example, will give you an idea of the potential problems that can occur. You do not have to be a qualified lawyer to understand the underlying legal principles nor to recognise the limitations of registration system in this country.
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I hate to say this but you're starting to come across as a bluffer. You may well know a bit more than the majority of us on here about the regulatory aspects of boat ownership but you don't seem to want to share that in a straightforward way with those of us you refer to as laymen. You are continually moving the goal posts and mixing apples with oranges. You bandy about meaningless phrases like "does not necessarily eliminate it" and "conventional" ownership pattern". It is nonsense to describe registration under Part 1 as "a voluntary system of registration that relies on self declaring documents of title". The only self declaration aspect of registration under Part 1 is the eligibility of the owner to register insofar as they are not required to prove their nationality or address. It is however an offense to knowingly furnish false information in support of an application for registration.
So back to your question asking me to "quote the law that says you have to register any changes". I'm happy to do so but I'm more than surprised a person such as yourself who claims to be an authority on this matter would imagine for a minute there wouldn't be such a law and if you have a boat on Part 1 you would only have needed to read your Registration Certificate. So the relevant U.K. law appears to be S.I. No. 3138 of 1993 The Merchant Shipping (Registration of Ships) Regulations 1993 and the section you asked to have quoted is Regulation 49 although Regulations 50 to 55 inclusive are also relevant. Part X111 Regulation 114 deals with offenses and I'd invite your particular attention to subsection [5] of that Regulation. These regulations will have been amended in certain respects over the years but I'm confident no material changes have been made to the sections to which I've referred.
As I've said repeatedly I'm not a lawyer and if anything I've written is wrong I'd be delighted to be put right but please don't come back with any more of the same chaff. You are constantly referring me to the RYA. I'm not a member of the RYA and while I'm sure they are a fine upstanding organisation I am also conscious of the fact that it suits their interest to over complicate issues and persuade us laymen, as you call us, we need to join their ranks and pay their fees. When I was registering a boat recently on Part 1 of the Jersey Register I found the official I dealt with was highly knowledgeable and helpful and gave me excellent information and advice. I had the same experience registering a boat in Ireland 8 years ago. My advice to anyone who wants information about registration is to speak to the experts. The UK Ships Registry has an excellent website with full contact details and I'm certain you will find them helpful and you will get good and definitive advice and you won't need to pay any attention to bluffers like myself and Tranona.
 
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