New to East Coast Sailing - Shoal Fin Keel??

Greg2

Greg2

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Hi,
Whilst being no stranger to cruising on the east coast I am new (nearly) to sailing on the east coast and would appreciate views on the type of keel(s) to go for.

Having sold our Fairline Targa we have just spent an enjoyable few days checking out brokerages on the south coast and now have an idea of what we would like in a yacht. Top of the list is a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40 DS with a shoal keel with another option being a Legend 38 with twin keels (already done the Legend debate on Scuttlebutt):-)

Leaving aside the relative merits of each boat is there a preference for either kind of keel for the east coast? As mentioned on another thread, I am reasonably happy that twin keels don't necessarily mean reduced performance bit would appreciate views on the relative merits of each.
 
I used to have a twin keel, I now have a fin. As you are talking of the East Coast I assume you are really asking how they deal with running out of wet stuff on which to float.

Of course the twin would normally need less water.

The advantage of twin is that you can dry out, but how often will you do this? On east coast mud there is the danger of one keel sinking into the surface and the other not.

The disadvantage of a twin keel was that if you do touch it is much more difficult to get off. On a fin keel, you can normally heel her over or, spin away. Twin keels can to stop you doing this. If you touch you are more likely to stay put for a while

The other option is lifting keel of course, but I assume that does not exist on the boats you are looking at.

AS always, all boats are a compromise, and you pays your money and makes your choice.
 
Doineann said:
I used to have a twin keel, I now have a fin. As you are talking of the East Coast I assume you are really asking how they deal with running out of wet stuff on which to float.

Of course the twin would normally need less water.

The advantage of twin is that you can dry out, but how often will you do this? On east coast mud there is the danger of one keel sinking into the surface and the other not.

The disadvantage of a twin keel was that if you do touch it is much more difficult to get off. On a fin keel, you can normally heel her over or, spin away. Twin keels can to stop you doing this. If you touch you are more likely to stay put for a while

The other option is lifting keel of course, but I assume that does not exist on the boats you are looking at.

AS always, all boats are a compromise, and you pays your money and makes your choice.
Click to expand...

Yes, I suppose I was thinking about running out of the wet stuff :-)
Some useful thoughts, I hadn't thought about one keel sinking or the issue of them being more difficult to get off. Only a shoal keel available on the Jeanneau and shoal or twin on the Legend. Don't seem to be many lifting keel options around and those that are seem to be quite expensive e.g Southerly, Feeling
 
millbeach said:
Watch your draft on the east coast.
That to me is very important, as it can restrict places to visit..:eek:
Click to expand...

Definitely an issue for us. We like places such as Tollesbury and am guessing that we wouldn't get there with a deep fin keel.
 
I guess there are almost as many answers to this question as there are choices. But, it is certain a deep fin restricts your choices. It isn't just a simple question of does it 'fit', for example getting into Tollesbury. You get a specimen answer to that question such as there is generally 2m over the sill at Tollesbury at HW springs but if your draft is close to that, you will be obliged to make a lot of places on time and your ability to get out again is restricted to top of the tide; be a little late and you're stuffed. Can be tedious and restrict your choices. It would also rule out some useful short cuts (Ray Sand for example) and mean that you have less flexibility crossing the major sands in the Estuary.

But lots of people have deep fins on the East Coast and it works because it suits their type of sailing.

I have bilge keels and to be honest I have never used them to dry out cruising. But then I have shallow draft TG being bespoke built for these waters. The downside of that is I don't point very high to windward and the lack of sophistication in the design of the bilge keels means that hard on the wind I can have two bow waves. One for the bow and the other for the windward bilge keel. My yard won't let me take them off saying the moment I do I'll want them.

One of the things that isn't defined is what is shoal draft. Mine is 1.143 metres on 32ft of wood. Certainly shoal draft. Before I bought TG, I looked at a wooden Yawl that drew 6ft. I concluded that she would restrict my sailing choices significantly round here. But she would have sailed enormously better to windward which occasionally in moments of unfair disloyalty to a boat that has given me great fun, I wonder what might have been.

I think you need to ask yourself what sort of sailing are you going to want to do. If it's explore all the nooks, then shoal draft is what you are after, with or without bilge keels. If you are going to want to spend a lot of your time crossing to Holland or France, then it might be better to think of a design that is more efficient at that sort of sailing. But there wil be plenty of people who say that their craft can do both - and they will be right. I've had great cross channel passages but the reality is that if the wind is to tighten up on me, my lack of efficiency to windward becomes more significant than to others. I can live with that. Occasionaly I regret it but by and large there's other benefits to my choice.

There, you see that didn't help.
 
My rationale for buying a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 35 Lift Keel.

Draws 1.1m unladen, 1.3m fully loaded
It can dry out on the wing keel and twin rudders with boots
I can turn it around in virtually any navigable creek.
Sub 11m berths are plentiful wherever you go
3.5m width is not wide than when the marinas were designed and built, so we fit (snugly) next to most other boats on finger pontoons
A lot of visitors moorings are maxed out around 35ft on the East Coast
Anchoring is not a major issue even if the windlass busts (although I would not want to haul any higher weight of anchor and chain.
The wing keel dampens the rolling motion at anchor very effectively.
35 feet gives a full standing headroom, decent sprung matttress forecabin, and a spacious shower and heads, with decent locker space too.
35ft is adequate to breach the choppy waves round the East Coast
This boat is pretty good in poxy weather and does not slam like some.
35ft is adequate to have a couple of guests along in total comfort
35ft is easily handled either singlehanded or as a couple
35ft is below the 11m charge point change in most marinas
35ft hasnt got enormous amounts of winter work and antifouling
A visit to the sailmakers only relieves you of one kidney and a leg.

Downsides:
Like Tillergirl, my boat is not cracking to windward.
Because I have twin rudders there is no propwash, so low speed manoeuvre in marinas is a get it right first time event.
Thats about it.
 
Interesting comment about twin rudders.

A recall a Southerly owner saying going astern was tricky as water flow over the rudder took longer? Having said that he was always crashing into us in our old marina berth going forwards or backwards, so maybe not right!

Keel depth and the East coast is not something anyone can give an answer to in measurement. Think about where you are likely to want to go, whether channel crossings are a regular part of your sailing or pottering locally. I personally put sailing characteristics above everything else, the ability to sail to windward could be a life saver for instance, as could of course the consequences of a grounding in something that sits upright....... you see the difficulty?

2m however is the limit though really without restricting yourself too badly.

Have fun shopping!
 
FullCircle said:
My rationale for buying a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 35 Lift Keel.

Draws 1.1m unladen, 1.3m fully loaded
It can dry out on the wing keel and twin rudders with boots
I can turn it around in virtually any navigable creek.
Sub 11m berths are plentiful wherever you go
3.5m width is not wide than when the marinas were designed and built, so we fit (snugly) next to most other boats on finger pontoons
A lot of visitors moorings are maxed out around 35ft on the East Coast
Anchoring is not a major issue even if the windlass busts (although I would not want to haul any higher weight of anchor and chain.
The wing keel dampens the rolling motion at anchor very effectively.
35 feet gives a full standing headroom, decent sprung matttress forecabin, and a spacious shower and heads, with decent locker space too.
35ft is adequate to breach the choppy waves round the East Coast
This boat is pretty good in poxy weather and does not slam like some.
35ft is adequate to have a couple of guests along in total comfort
35ft is easily handled either singlehanded or as a couple
35ft is below the 11m charge point change in most marinas
35ft hasnt got enormous amounts of winter work and antifouling
A visit to the sailmakers only relieves you of one kidney and a leg.

Downsides:
Like Tillergirl, my boat is not cracking to windward.
Because I have twin rudders there is no propwash, so low speed manoeuvre in marinas is a get it right first time event.
Thats about it.
Click to expand...


Everything he said, except ours is a Beneteau 323, lift keel.
 
Thanks for your thoughts. Still a bit of a conundrum then!!!

Some interesting comments about the 35 feet issue for moorings - our Targa was a 35 and we did okay but thinking about it our first choice of a 40 footer with a shoal fin keel may bring other issues in finding a parking spot!
 
I'm not a fan of shoal fin keels.

To me it seems a daft compromise. All the disadvantages of not being able to take the ground, yet reduced benefits of a fin keel to windward.

Personally, I'd go to a bilge keel/lifting keel or a fin keel and avoid middle ground compromise.

We have a 40' fin keel drawing 1.9m and have never found it be a problem in terms of restriction...

PS.. It's for sale ;)
 
I have never regretted buying a 1.7m fin keel. I don't want to dry out, I have got better at tidal height calculations in my head, It goes to windward very well. OK, there are some restrictions in or out of some marinas but it's a small price to pay.
 
Most of the stuff Full Circle said, except that we kept below 10m (it's the usual carging point for higher moorings in N Europe). We went for twin keels because we like the shallow bits, little creeks, and don't mind grounding in the mud for a few hours (upright!).

Having chosen them, we find the pointing, speed and general handling have not suffered compared to an identical fin keeled boat. See the twin v fin keel thread below. I don't know if that is true of the boats you've chosen to look at, or even if such a comparison is possible in those cases.
 
AliM said:
Most of the stuff Full Circle said, except that we kept below 10m (it's the usual carging point for higher moorings in N Europe). We went for twin keels because we like the shallow bits, little creeks, and don't mind grounding in the mud for a few hours (upright!).

Having chosen them, we find the pointing, speed and general handling have not suffered compared to an identical fin keeled boat. See the twin v fin keel thread below. I don't know if that is true of the boats you've chosen to look at, or even if such a comparison is possible in those cases.
Click to expand...

We have looked at Legends, which have a twin keel option but our real preference is for a jeanneau deck saloon so a min of 40 feet and no lift keel or twin keel options.

Not familiar with the 10m point being relevant for moorings as the marinas I have been in charge by the metre or part thereof. Is it common for a price banding to be applied between certain lengths then?
 
From Burnham Yacht Harbour Website:

Pontoon berths 10 metres and below
12 Month Licence (Payable in advance) £288.00 per metre

Pontoon berths 11 metres and above
12 Month Licence (Payable in advance) £341.00 per metre


So, if my 35ft boat was 36ft, it would cost an extra £600 or so.
 
FullCircle said:
From Burnham Yacht Harbour Website:

Pontoon berths 10 metres and below
12 Month Licence (Payable in advance) £288.00 per metre

Pontoon berths 11 metres and above
12 Month Licence (Payable in advance) £341.00 per metre


So, if my 35ft boat was 36ft, it would cost an extra £600 or so.
Click to expand...

Blimey! Never come across this before. How on earth is this justified? Silly question I suppose as it is in the leisure marine world:-(

I suppose it Boils down to what is important to you and what you are prepared to pay. Space inboard is important to me so I may have to live with the higher costs.
 
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