New Targa 58

[Nick_H]

I'm not convinced that having the heads in the bow, and the master cabin set behind will mean quieter nights at anchor. The noisiest place to be is level with the point where the spray rail breaks the surface of the water, which is about where the master cabin will be. The rail slaps down on the water and makes much more noise than any wavelets hitting the bow, particularly as Olesinki hulls have quite large flat horizontal spray rails. I'm fortunate that wave noise doesn't really stop me sleeping, but then to be honest being draped over a guard rail in the rain wouldn't stop me sleeping ..

Agree the passarelle/swim ladder is a work of art and a fabulous idea, wish you could retrofit them.

 

[jfm]

ok thats cool! can't wait to see it for real

as for the interior today I noticed that the Rizzardi 55 Incredible launched in 2008 has a similar set up to the fore owner cabin as the 58 Targa, and even the aft cabins are the same with scissor movement which transform to a double VIP if desired, three heads, but in standard version one of the heads is used as a day head too, not with en-suite door
but apart this the 55 Incredible has also a lower galley and saloon, the 55 Incredible measure 59.8 in overall, a feet more in length, but 3/4 of feet less in beam
shame on me for forgetting, I visited the yard in Rome when hull one was under construction...
www.inrizzardi.com

Yes PY, it's a great shame more builders don't make the guest cabin convert to 1xdouble or 2x single beds, whether "scissor" or just a sliding thing. Lots of builders have done this over the years. S'seeker build the hattan 70 upwards with this feature in the guest cabins if you ask for it, and they have 2 bedside tables so that regardless of which bed configuration you choose the furniture looks right. They use a sliding mechanism not scissors. Those 6 valdetarro 34m that have been incredibly successful charter yachts over the years have this feature in 4 cabins. And many others. It's definitely not rocket science

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Ah, hang on a minute! The t58 passerelle is much cleverer than that - the slats in it are always horizontal, so while the thing might be at 45 deg overall the teak surface becomes a series of flat steps, so it's like walking up the steps in a house which are also at 45deg typically. No mountain goatery is required!

Ditto when it goes down into the water for swimming- the steps stay horizontal. There is a CGI pic on the Fairline website showing this (the shot taken between the Lerins islands off Cannes)

This is, as PY says, the same as how Besenzoni did the custom passerelle on the itama 55 and it's also the same concept as the Wallypower 118 passerelle. But the itama's is a much more lightweight and flimsy thing than the quite chunky solid passerelle on the targa 58. Also the itama passerelle hinged up using a hinge located at the transom, not from the aft edge of the bathing platform as on the t58. This is because the itama passerelle didn't retract into the bathing platform as the t58 one does. It was telescopic, but of course most of the length of the passerlle was consumed in traversing the bathing platform, not traversing the gap twixt boat and quay. On the t58, the whole length of the passerelle is deployed bridging the gap twixt boat and quay

Seriously, the targa 58 passerelle is a brilliant bit of kit

Someone mentioned that hull 1 of t58 is for sale. It is, but that doesn't reflect on the quality of the boat. It's just a customer who has committed to the boat and wants to sell his position for personal reasons, nothing to do with the boat itself

As clever as, umm, yes, as clever as a step ladder Yeah, OK, I didn't appreciate it was stepped and so it makes more sense but I can't get too excited about it. It will still present a steep set of steps to negotiate for anyone old or infirm (think mother in law) and, one day probably sooner rather than later, it's going to get stuck in the down position which means dragging it thru the water at speed and probably ripping it off. IMHO the jury is out until you can test it. Looks a bit heavy to me so could be a bit wobbly

 

[jfm]

As clever as, umm, yes, as clever as a step ladder Yeah, OK, I didn't appreciate it was stepped and so it makes more sense but I can't get too excited about it. It will still present a steep set of steps to negotiate for anyone old or infirm (think mother in law) and, one day probably sooner rather than later, it's going to get stuck in the down position which means dragging it thru the water at speed and probably ripping it off. IMHO the jury is out until you can test it. Looks a bit heavy to me so could be a bit wobbly

I don't think you're being fair mike! If your MiL dislikes stairs she'll be equally troubled by a non-horizontal passerelle requiring mountain goat skills, and she'll much prefer steps into the sea compared with a ladder

As you know (in your line of business!) wobbliness in hydraulics is not much related to the weight of the passerelle. It's all to do with the geometry/leverage ratio on the hydraulic ram plus the elasticity suffered within the flexible components in the hydrualic system (ie the hoses, steel pipes to lesser extent, seals, valves, and air in the oil.

 

[MapisM]

If your MiL dislikes stairs she'll be equally troubled by a non-horizontal passerelle requiring mountain goat skills

I'm afraid you're not being fair either, J.
It's a matter of geometry: a normal fold away passerelle, fitted just below the deck level, would need just a small angle to reach the same height that would require 45 deg with the T58 ladder. In fact, most foldaway passerelle can't even be raised/lowered more than 15° or so, by design.
Besides, I'd rather not have ANY step in a passage which is often used to carry bags and stuff (not to mention holding a baby!), regardless of the angle. I hate even the 1" (yep, 2cm or so!) step on my passerelle, where the extensible part slides inside the fixed one...

and she'll much prefer steps into the sea compared with a ladder

Absolutely true. That's where that bit of kit really shines, but that's it.
Perfect for a Mangusta 130' or other similar toys, where it would surely be fitted together with a proper gangway.

All imho, as always.

PS: on a side note, I reckon that FL could use a reminder of yours (yet another one! ) on the subject of how to position bow cleats...

 

[jfm]

I'm afraid you're not being fair either, J.
It's a matter of geometry: a normal fold away passerelle, fitted just below the deck level, would need just a small angle to reach the same height that would require 45 deg with the T58 ladder. In fact, most foldaway passerelle can't even be raised/lowered more than 15° or so, by design.
Besides, I'd rather not have ANY step in a passage which is often used to carry bags and stuff (not to mention holding a baby!), regardless of the angle. I hate even the 1" (yep, 2cm or so!) step on my passerelle, where the extensible part slides inside the fixed one...

Absolutely true. That's where that bit of kit really shines, but that's it.
Perfect for a Mangusta 130' or other similar toys, where it would surely be fitted together with a proper gangway.

All imho, as always.

PS: on a side note, I reckon that FL could use a reminder of yours (yet another one! ) on the subject of how to position bow cleats...

Yup, you are right that the t58 pass will generally need a bigger angle than a normal passerelle, all other things being equal. But the always-horizontal steps (arguably) make up for that. As regards your general dislike of steps on passerelles, I take your point, but there is a trade off becuase at least you will never have a steep ramp with the t58, whereas on other boats you always will, from time to time in some ports. Overall I agree with you that it shines more as a swim ladder.

And I agree about the cleats but have given up on that one! Nice flat fordeck on the t58 too, better than sloping coachroof all the way to the bow

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I don't think you're being fair mike! If your MiL dislikes stairs she'll be equally troubled by a non-horizontal passerelle requiring mountain goat skills, and she'll much prefer steps into the sea compared with a ladder

As you know (in your line of business!) wobbliness in hydraulics is not much related to the weight of the passerelle. It's all to do with the geometry/leverage ratio on the hydraulic ram plus the elasticity suffered within the flexible components in the hydrualic system (ie the hoses, steel pipes to lesser extent, seals, valves, and air in the oil.

Well as I say I reserve judgement until I see it. Yes you are right in that the main factor governing the wobbliness of the steps is the geometry of the hydraulic lifting ram but by it's very design, the geometry cannot be as favourable as a normal passarelle because the ram has to fold flat for the pasarelle to slide back into it's enclosure. Also because the step assembly has to slide in a frame, when it is in it's extended position, the tolerances between the sliding parts will have to be very tight in order for the step assemby to be rigidly supported
Btw whats a 'Hydraulic cantilever bathing platform tender launch'? I take it that's some kind of crane? If so thats another disadvantage of the T58 pasarelle system because it can't be used to launch the tender so there's an awful lot of cost tied up in a fancy pasarelle system and tender launching crane which in a cost conscious market is maybe not so clever
All IMHO and I'm prepared to believe that some buyers might be dazzled by the pasarelle system but not me. In other respects, particularly the cabin layout, I think the T58 is a fab boat and I wish Fairline well with it. Same hull and layout for a new flybridge Sq58?

 

[jfm]

Well as I say I reserve judgement until I see it. Yes you are right in that the main factor governing the wobbliness of the steps is the geometry of the hydraulic lifting ram but by it's very design, the geometry cannot be as favourable as a normal passarelle because the ram has to fold flat for the pasarelle to slide back into it's enclosure. Also because the step assembly has to slide in a frame, when it is in it's extended position, the tolerances between the sliding parts will have to be very tight in order for the step assemby to be rigidly supported
Btw whats a 'Hydraulic cantilever bathing platform tender launch'? I take it that's some kind of crane? If so thats another disadvantage of the T58 pasarelle system because it can't be used to launch the tender so there's an awful lot of cost tied up in a fancy pasarelle system and tender launching crane which in a cost conscious market is maybe not so clever
All IMHO and I'm prepared to believe that some buyers might be dazzled by the pasarelle system but not me. In other respects, particularly the cabin layout, I think the T58 is a fab boat and I wish Fairline well with it. Same hull and layout for a new flybridge Sq58?

Agreed mike but all those geometry problems occur with all "letterbox" passerelles that slide back behind a flap and disappear under the aft deck. As typically found on say 65 footers upwards. They can still be stiff if well designed with stiff components, and designed with minimal elasticity in the components containing the oil. All those things have been solved.

The tender lift thing is a hydraulic arm that launches the tender and then stows flush into the bathing platform floor. I haven't seen pictures yet but it seems a good idea and has minimum number of articulated joints in the crane to KISS. I hope this idea catches on, becuase as you know I've never been a fan of the recent trend to up/down platforms so I'm very pleased that fairline have found a new direction that doesn't use the up/down platform and doesn't need a "surface mounted" crane from the besenzoni or opacmare catalogues

Coming back to the passerelle, fairline offer the factory option of a normal letterbox passerelle in the t58 if you want one, thus allowing you to use the steps as a swim ladder only, if you prefer that. The letter box passerelle fits in the usual place, ie it comes out of the riser to the top step twixt swim platform and aft deck. So keeping all of the people happy all of the time?!

You are right that there is cost here, potentially a passerelle, swim ladder, and dinghy crane. But wait a minute - the alternative in the current market to the dinghy crane system is an up/down platform, which costs LOADS more to install and maintain, as well as making for an (imho) inferior boat. And/or a hydraulic garage door, which has the same basic hydraulics as the fairline launch system. The cost of the swim ladder is surely a few £thousand, but that's a luxury worth paying for imho and I think Fairline are aiming at customers who think that's work say £8k extra (I'm guessing the £ number) into the build cost because they are buying kind of a BMW not a Vauxhall. On that point I'd agree - if I could have that swim ladder on my Sq58 they'd get an £8k cheque from me tomorrow

 

[benjenbav]

The angle doesn't look too bad from the swim platform on this little runabout in St Trop:

 

[jfm]

Ah, Wallypower 70 benjenbav, nice pic. I didn't know they had that passerelle, but yes it is indeed same concept as t58. As mentioned above, the WP118 had similar concept too, though it was much wider and pointed down as well as up to make a swim ladder, and it hinged at the top of the transom. On the WP70 in your pic, it looks like it only points up, not down

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Many quays in the Med are much higher than that and the boat would have to be pulled tighter to the quay to reduce the angle of the bow lines so the steps would have to be angled much steeper. Certainly on my mooring in Palma, the steps would be at about 45 deg

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

£8k? And the rest I should think. Who makes this thing anyway and who's going to provide spares and service for it when it fails? Sorry I just can't get excited about it as it seems to me like reinventing the wheel to no good effect. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If I was looking at this boat, I'd be thinking that I have to buy 2 semi bespoke pieces of equipment (the pasarelle and the crane) which cost a lot of money (my guess would be about £10-15k each) and which nobody is going to be able to get spares for when they go bang. I'd rather have a boat with a proprietary pasarelle mounted in it's usual position midships on the transom (which is a better position anyway for reaching the shore on most Med berths) which serves as both pasarelle and dinghy crane and which is less likely to break and when it does, I can get service anywhere. Then I'd go and spend the notional money saved on something more useful like a built in cigar humidor in the saloon

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

yes too much gadgets sounds so much eighties or begining nineties, when the old Ferretti used to have the Besenzoni electric passarelle, and a crane on the platform, or hidden in the aft bulkhead
I think I prefare the traditional set up too than having three pieces of equipment, just to launch a tender and going on land

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

yes too much gadgets sounds so much eighties or begining nineties, when the old Ferretti used to have the Besenzoni electric passarelle, and a crane on the platform, or hidden in the aft bulkhead
I think I prefare the traditional set up too than having three pieces of equipment, just to launch a tender and going on land

Yeah you're right, the old Ferrettis did have a separate crane for the dinghy but I think this was because the pasarelles at the time were not strong enough to lift the dinghy and also the PWC which Ferretti always say you can store in the lazarette under the bathing platform

 

[jfm]

£8k? And the rest I should think. Who makes this thing anyway and who's going to provide spares and service for it when it fails? Sorry I just can't get excited about it as it seems to me like reinventing the wheel to no good effect. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If I was looking at this boat, I'd be thinking that I have to buy 2 semi bespoke pieces of equipment (the pasarelle and the crane) which cost a lot of money (my guess would be about £10-15k each) and which nobody is going to be able to get spares for when they go bang. I'd rather have a boat with a proprietary pasarelle mounted in it's usual position midships on the transom (which is a better position anyway for reaching the shore on most Med berths) which serves as both pasarelle and dinghy crane and which is less likely to break and when it does, I can get service anywhere. Then I'd go and spend the notional money saved on something more useful like a built in cigar humidor in the saloon

Yep the £8k was a joke. It'll be a bit more than that, I expect, for the steps! The dinghy crane is nothing like 10-15k, it's much simpler than that, similar hydraulic install to a garage door.

But if you're going to disagree with passerelles mounted lower than the top edge of the transom, you need to be complaining not just about t58 but about pretty much every 60footer+ on the market, becuase they pretty much all have passerelles that slide out from a letterbox in the riser of the top step to the bathing platform

Let's look at t58 at LIBS and see if these steps are well made? I dunno who makes them but probably a custom order from besenzoni or something? All that said, hydraulics can be made very reliable if well-specced (again, as you know in your day job business). In 9 years of med boating, 3 boats, I've never yet had to buy any spare parts for a passerelle!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But if you're going to disagree with passerelles mounted lower than the top edge of the transom, you need to be complaining not just about t58 but about pretty much every 60footer+ on the market, becuase they pretty much all have passerelles that slide out from a letterbox in the riser of the top step to the bathing platform

Let's look at t58 at LIBS and see if these steps are well made? I dunno who makes them but probably a custom order from besenzoni or something? All that said, hydraulics can be made very reliable if well-specced (again, as you know in your day job business). In 9 years of med boating, 3 boats, I've never yet had to buy any spare parts for a passerelle!

Can't see any new Ferrettis around this size which don't have a standard centrally mounted pasarelle! But yes you are right, plenty of boats have telescopic pasarelles. OK I'm prepared to concede that where the tender is carried on the flybridge and you need another crane anyway, a telescopic pasarelle makes sense if only to keep the bathing platform clear and give the designer more options for the cockpit seating. I still cannot see it makes any sense if the tender is carried on the bathing platform and where a pasarelle can do both jobs
Yup, Besenzoni do offer telescopic swim ladders that look like the Fairline device so maybe it's a Besenzoni product in which case maybe it will work. If it's a Whittall lash up like the pasarelle on the T48, I wouldn't give it house room

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Ferretti central located passarelle on the 53 onwards since 1997 was a special design developed in coperation with Besenzoni, where it had a crane winch integrated, and could also swivel to thirty degrees on both sides, apart from going only up and down
while I dont know if this is patented or not I also dont know who owns the patent, but I would think it is Ferretti as it was never offered on the Besenzoni catalogue as of last year
this passarelle was offered fon the following models and had a lifting capacity of up to 400kg and of 500kg for the bigger models
it was offered on the 500, 510, 53/530, 55, 57, 590/591, 592, 620, 630/631

 

[Nick_H]

while I dont know if this is patented or not I also dont know who owns the patent, but I would think it is Ferretti as it was never offered on the Besenzoni catalogue as of last year

Patenting a crane because it swivels from side to side like a ... erm.. crane, would be a bit of a challenge.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Ferretti central located passarelle on the 53 onwards since 1997 was a special design developed in coperation with Besenzoni, where it had a crane winch integrated, and could also swivel to thirty degrees on both sides, apart from going only up and down
while I dont know if this is patented or not I also dont know who owns the patent, but I would think it is Ferretti as it was never offered on the Besenzoni catalogue as of last year
this passarelle was offered fon the following models and had a lifting capacity of up to 400kg and of 500kg for the bigger models
it was offered on the 500, 510, 53/530, 55, 57, 590/591, 592, 620, 630/631

Thanks PYB. I have been looking at 53/530's recently and I noticed the sideways swivelling capability of the pasarelle but I thought it was a standard Besenzoni product.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Patenting a crane because it swivels from side to side like a ... erm.. crane, would be a bit of a challenge.

Yup you're right. It would be a bit tricky unless you managed to convince the patent office that a pasarelle was a unique type of crane or gangway but I think that would be a very long shot methinks. In fact both Besenzoni http://www.besenzoni.it/en/prodotti_passerelle-eg.html and Opacmare http://www.opacmare.com/index.jsp?ixPageId=994&ixMenuId=349 offer slewing/rotating pasarelles