new Storm Jib

[Mark-1]

"Suppose it might be adequate...." Condescending much?

I got to know John quite well when I worked for the boat show. Worked together when we put on the cruising chute demos with the "yacht" on a turntable in front of big fans. Which I then hijacked to run racing spinnaker demos with Pip Hare.
He eventually admitted he had been wrong about the relative interest of the 2 demos. Pip got bigger crowds than he did, and this was about a decade before her 1st Vendee....

Bit of a tangent but is John Goode an obvious authority on heavy weather sailing? By all accounts a great Editor, great teacher and ran a successful and well regarded Solent Sailing School but is he someone you'd really consult on extreme sailing? I wouldn't be citing Skip Novak or Webb Chiles on the topic of running a Solent Sail Training Business and I'm not sure I'd be citing John Goode on handling a gale at sea, doesn't seem to be his lane.

Was he a secret heavy weather adrenaline junky?

 

[PetiteFleur]

When I got my boat yrs ago, there was an inner forestay, but never fitted to a deck fitting. The storm was in good condition but with a rusty luff and fittings. Local sailmaker replaced the luff with rope, fitted new cringles and hanks. For the inner forestay I fitted a dual Wichard deck fitting both above and below deck with a turnbuckle to the reinforced bow bulkhead(with an easily opened hatch to get to the anchor chain). For the the forestay deck fitting I had an overcentre turnbuckle for tightening the stay. The stay is usually lashed to the toe rail. Tested it in a F3/4 and it worked well, but never tested in a real storm yet. The sail also has its own sheets.

 

[capnsensible]

Bit of a tangent but is John Goode an obvious authority on heavy weather sailing? By all accounts a great Editor, great teacher and ran a successful and well regarded Solent Sailing School but is he someone you'd really consult on extreme sailing? I wouldn't be citing Skip Novak or Webb Chiles on the topic of running a Solent Sail Training Business and I'm not sure I'd be citing John Goode on handling a gale at sea, doesn't seem to be his lane.

Was he a secret heavy weather adrenaline junky?

He will have forgotten more about sailing than you will probably ever know....

 

[flaming]

Bit of a tangent but is John Goode an obvious authority on heavy weather sailing? By all accounts a great Editor, great teacher and ran a successful and well regarded Solent Sailing School but is he someone you'd really consult on extreme sailing? I wouldn't be citing Skip Novak or Webb Chiles on the topic of running a Solent Sail Training Business and I'm not sure I'd be citing John Goode on handling a gale at sea, doesn't seem to be his lane.

Was he a secret heavy weather adrenaline junky?

He first went to sea aged 14.

True his biggest area of expertise was probably navigation, but I certainly wouldn't have questioned him on heavy weather sailing.

 

[Mark-1]

He first went to sea aged 14.

True his biggest area of expertise was probably navigation, but I certainly wouldn't have questioned him on heavy weather sailing.

I'm in no way criticizing John Goode. The guy built a career in leisure sailing and was clearly an exceptional teacher and mag article writer. I was just curious to see him quoted in this context, I wondered if he'd done something I wasn't aware of - if he had I'd have wanted to get hold of the book.

...and I first went to sea when I was 3. Meanwhile Webb Chiles was a late starter - into his teens before he started sailing - and he's seen weather in an open boat that wasn't necessarily survivable. My daughter first went to sea when she was 8 months (and, like your kids, she saw 30kts of wind at 8mths). She's an authority on Taylor Swift but if I saw her quoted here as a source on extreme sailing it would pique my curiosity.

 

[flaming]

I'm in no way criticizing John Goode. The guy built a career in leisure sailing and was clearly an exceptional teacher and mag article writer. I was just curious to see him quoted in this context, I wondered if he'd done something I wasn't aware of - if he had I'd have wanted to get hold of the book.

...and I first went to sea when I was 3. Meanwhile Webb Chiles was a late starter - into his teens before he started sailing - and he's seen weather in an open boat that wasn't necessarily survivable. My daughter first went to sea when she was 8 months (and, like your kids, she saw 30kts of wind at 8mths). She's an authority on Taylor Swift but if I saw her quoted here as a source on extreme sailing it would pique my curiosity.

"Going to sea" in this context is not being taken out on Daddy's yacht. It was joining the Merchant Navy.

I had a lot of time for John when I worked with him, even if he did have a slight sense of reverse snobbery about anyone who'd do anything as daft as actually racing a boat.

 

[Mark-1]

"Going to sea" in this context is not being taken out on Daddy's yacht. It was joining the Merchant Navy.

I had a lot of time for John when I worked with him, even if he did have a slight sense of reverse snobbery about anyone who'd do anything as daft as actually racing a boat.

I would strongly argue that going out on Daddy's yacht is way more relevant to storm sails than the post war Merchant Navy. I'd bet there are people who spent their lives in the Merchant Navy who couldn't sail a Pico to Priory Bay!

Anyway, I've got my answer. I wasn't intending to analyze JG's career, the question I should have asked was "Has JG written a good first hand book on his heavy weather Ocean Racing or on a 6 month cruise around Patagonia , if so I'll get hold of a copy.". Sounds like no, his (exceptional and highly commendable) niche was pretty much exactly where I thought it was.

 

[dunedin]

I guess a bit more info from the OP on size/type of boat and sailing plans might help give more definitive views.
Are the plans for coastal sailing or a trip to Patagonia?

If doing an Ocean crossing I would definitely want a storm jib - and on an inner forestay, never a wrap around one as in conditions that might need I would not want to phaffing around on the foredeck.
But we don’t carry a storm jib currently. And in circa 35,000 miles coastal cruising from La Rochelle to Stockholm - including a lot around the windy NW perimeter including St Kilda and Muckle Flugga - we have never felt the need for one.

I would suggest - and indeed have applied - a priorisation of investment as follows:

1) A subscription to Predict Wind. Prevention is better than cure, and avoiding sailing upwind in F8 is better than bashing upwind with a storm jib. Excepting short term squalls (Scottish hills, headlands or thunder storms), a F8+ is generally foreseen 3-5 days ahead, and more for big storms. Best solution is not a storm jib but being elsewhere # or tied up in a safe harbour.

2) Third reef in mainsail. Most boats seem to have only 2 reefs these days. After fitting a stackpack, our next investment is always a deep 3rd reef. Rarely needed but when it is then very worthwhile. Sailing downwind in F8 quite comfortable if needed, and we can also go upwind (not at a great angle) under main only if a sudden squall, whilst put kettle on.

3) High quality triradial (perhaps cruising laminate) jib with foam luff. The foam luff makes a huge difference when combined with a good quality sail. Reduces heeling, improves pointing angle and gets you to shelter much faster. Crank on the backstay and sometimes doing a VMG of twice that of similar boats with baggy part reefed sails.

4) If you have the manpower to change sails, then a blade No3 jib might be a good investment. We had on previous boat and great upwind if fully crewed, but never used 2 up as too much hassle removing and folding the genoa. Only ever done in harbour before an upwind breezy sail. But not needed on current boat as standard jib is 105% with a big mainsail, which is better all round setup.

# With 4 days weather warning we can easily get 200 miles away before the bad weather hits. Regularly apply this - multiple times a year. Often can be cruising in sunshine in moderate weather elsewhere, rather than being pasted where we had originally planned to be. Last 2 years bailed out of Shetland after spells of fantastic weather when a change was forecast at the end of the week. Those who only followed the Inshore Waters short term forecasts took a bashing and faced long waits for a weather window, by which time we were 300 miles away.

Just my views.

 

[capnsensible]

I don't know how many seas and oceans JG crossed under sail. But i know which ones and how many times I hav3.

Following his advice and having a high viz easily hoisted storm jib, well practised in light winds has served me well.

Having also taken yachts on long offshore passages without one too, I learnt the advantages of stout storm canvas. Experience of breaking waves also reinforced the idea of keeping storm jibs well above the deck. Tons of water crashing aboard raises an awareness of the power of the sea that few sailors experience. Although somewhat alarming. I feel privileged to have been through those circumstances.

 

[Cheeky Girl]

I guess a bit more info from the OP on size/type of boat and sailing plans might help give more definitive views.
Are the plans for coastal sailing or a trip to Patagonia?

If doing an Ocean crossing I would definitely want a storm jib - and on an inner forestay, never a wrap around one as in conditions that might need I would not want to phaffing around on the foredeck.
But we don’t carry a storm jib currently. And in circa 35,000 miles coastal cruising from La Rochelle to Stockholm - including a lot around the windy NW perimeter including St Kilda and Muckle Flugga - we have never felt the need for one.

I would suggest - and indeed have applied - a priorisation of investment as follows:

1) A subscription to Predict Wind. Prevention is better than cure, and avoiding sailing upwind in F8 is better than bashing upwind with a storm jib. Excepting short term squalls (Scottish hills, headlands or thunder storms), a F8+ is generally foreseen 3-5 days ahead, and more for big storms. Best solution is not a storm jib but being elsewhere # or tied up in a safe harbour.

2) Third reef in mainsail. Most boats seem to have only 2 reefs these days. After fitting a stackpack, our next investment is always a deep 3rd reef. Rarely needed but when it is then very worthwhile. Sailing downwind in F8 quite comfortable if needed, and we can also go upwind (not at a great angle) under main only if a sudden squall, whilst put kettle on.

3) High quality triradial (perhaps cruising laminate) jib with foam luff. The foam luff makes a huge difference when combined with a good quality sail. Reduces heeling, improves pointing angle and gets you to shelter much faster. Crank on the backstay and sometimes doing a VMG of twice that of similar boats with baggy part reefed sails.

4) If you have the manpower to change sails, then a blade No3 jib might be a good investment. We had on previous boat and great upwind if fully crewed, but never used 2 up as too much hassle removing and folding the genoa. Only ever done in harbour before an upwind breezy sail. But not needed on current boat as standard jib is 105% with a big mainsail, which is better all round setup.

# With 4 days weather warning we can easily get 200 miles away before the bad weather hits. Regularly apply this - multiple times a year. Often can be cruising in sunshine in moderate weather elsewhere, rather than being pasted where we had originally planned to be. Last 2 years bailed out of Shetland after spells of fantastic weather when a change was forecast at the end of the week. Those who only followed the Inshore Waters short term forecasts took a bashing and faced long waits for a weather window, by which time we were 300 miles away.

Just my views.

Cheeky is a Dufour Classic 36 based in Kerrera.

We have a furling genoa with foam luff and an in-mast furling main.
Th
e other week we ended up 44knts of with with all the forecasts F4-5. We all felt that a storm jib would have had a better shape on the sail back to Tobermory.

 

[BobnLesley]

I have had only few occasions when I have needed or used a storm jib. My thoughts are:

if at all possible conduct your passage so the storm jib is set well before you need it (hours)... One scenario is to get it ready before leaving port/anchorage..

If you were anticipating weather conditions which require a storm jib, why would you leave that secure port/anchorage in the first place?

 

[dunedin]

Cheeky is a Dufour Classic 36 based in Kerrera.

We have a furling genoa with foam luff and an in-mast furling main.
Th
e other week we ended up 44knts of with with all the forecasts F4-5. We all felt that a storm jib would have had a better shape on the sail back to Tobermory.

Lovely location. Wonder what date that was - as we were probably nearby (and heading back there shortly)

Not sure what forecast you were using, but there has been some surprising variability recently, hence why seriously suggested using something like PredictWind to compare models. I posted on another thread some huge variations over a couple of days when I was looking to come back round Ardnamurchan, even for just 24 hours ahead - GFS had 5knts from the E and others had 20 ish gusting 30 ish from the SW. Clearly was unusually unstable, which the divergence warned of - hence the value of a multi-model forecast.

Not sure how long your squall lasted, but would you really want to spend time on foredeck trying to tie off the genoa sheets and then hoist a sleeve storm jib (as ever, a proper inner forestay and hanked on jib would be easier, but expensive and more hassle the rest of the time).
Heading from Tobermory to Oban a couple of weeks back I ventured out a bit early, when others were staying in Tobermory. Under jib only got a squall for 40 minutes or so in Sound of Mull - but biggest issue was reduced visibility.
Initially reefed jib and could have sailed on but going too fast for visibility - so just furled jib, engine on and kettle on. After a cup of coffee in the dry under the sprayhood, a few miles on rain and wind eased, so jib out and sailed on.

So again lots of options for you to consider. But Oban area is just the sort of location we have sailed a LOT and never wanted for a storm jib (though our fully battened main is much flatter and more efficient than an in mast one).
What overlap does the genoa on your Dufour have? If a large 140% or so possibly a 120% might be a good compromise?

 

[Mark-1]

If you were anticipating weather conditions which require a storm jib, why would you leave that secure port/anchorage in the first place?

Having chartered in Scotland a fair bit you deffo leave in that weather becaise if you didn't you'd never go anywhere. The Islands provide shelter from sea if not wind so the sea states are usually way flatter than the equivalent wind in (say) the English Channel so it's usually fairly sailable.

 

[Supertramp]

The high land can create fierce wind funnels around Mull. And the Sound of Mull is notoriously fickle for wind direction and strength. The land provides shelter but some excitement off headlands and channels. I have had similar short term experiences with local wind gusts way beyond gust forecast and it is good to have sail choices to deal with it. I find the furling main useful as you can shrink it to a trysail sized, manageable area. But a big genoa furled to storm jib size is always going to be a compromise in shape and position. Tolerable perhaps for short hop coastal sailing but not prolonged passages.

UKV2 in Windy can give some idea of local variations due to geography rather than the overview of ECMWF and others.

Plenty of ideas to consider in the thread. Enjoy the sailing from someone trapped on land for another month.

 

[dunedin]

Having chartered in Scotland a fair bit you deffo leave in that weather becaise if you didn't you'd never go anywhere. The Islands provide shelter from sea if not wind so the sea states are usually way flatter than the equivalent wind in (say) the English Channel so it's usually fairly sailable.

Hence yes back to the OPs sailing plans. Charter boats trying to keep to a schedule set 6 months back in London do tend to bash into worse weather than sensible locals.

 

[dunedin]

The high land can create fierce wind funnels around Mull. And the Sound of Mull is notoriously fickle for wind direction and strength. The land provides shelter but some excitement off headlands and channels. I have had similar short term experiences with local wind gusts way beyond gust forecast and it is good to have sail choices to deal with it. I find the furling main useful as you can shrink it to a trysail sized, manageable area. But a big genoa furled to storm jib size is always going to be a compromise in shape and position. Tolerable perhaps for short hop coastal sailing but not prolonged passages.

UKV2 in Windy can give some idea of local variations due to geography rather than the overview of ECMWF and others.

Plenty of ideas to consider in the thread. Enjoy the sailing from someone trapped on land for another month.

In my experience Mull is pretty benign in Scottish terms - not particularly gusty, and Sound of Mull benefits from largely flat water.

Ardnamurchan can get a bit frisky, but only for 5 or 10 miles. Ditto Cape Wrath but up another notch. But again sensible timing makes all the difference.

The thing about gusts and squalls in island Sound’s, they tend to be short term, so by time spent an hour changing to a storm jib the wind will be down to 5 knots from the opposite direction. Hence a high quality jib (and mainsail) that can be reefed and unreeled quickly suits us in these waters.

 

[Supertramp]

In my experience Mull is pretty benign in Scottish terms - not particularly gusty, and Sound of Mull benefits from largely flat water.

Ardnamurchan can get a bit frisky, but only for 5 or 10 miles. Ditto Cape Wrath but up another notch. But again sensible timing makes all the difference.

The thing about gusts and squalls in island Sound’s, they tend to be short term, so by time spent an hour changing to a storm jib the wind will be down to 5 knots from the opposite direction. Hence a high quality jib (and mainsail) that can be reefed and unreeled quickly suits us in these waters.

Agree with you - a big difference between coping for another hour versus covering 30 or 40 miles. Time spent absorbing forecasts is well spent. You are right about the Inner Hebrides although I have experienced some boat flattening williwaws off Whiten Head (near Cape Wrath) and around Skye where the wind descends onto the water. But only very short term and in specific areas.

 

[Mark-1]

Hence yes back to the OPs sailing plans. Charter boats trying to keep to a schedule set 6 months back in London do tend to bash into worse weather than sensible locals.

I tried to avoid places with other boats so I didn't see see what the locals were doing but one day in Tobormory in, what I believe was a F10, my GF and I stayed put and two local boats had a go at getting back to Oban. Both came back having found Loch Lhinnie impassable. I was very impressed. There wouldn't be two boats leaving anywhere in the Solent In a F10. It was well forecast that's why I was in the Town - trying to hide from it somewhere with shore access. Which was a mistake because the pontoons were totally untenable. In theory sheltered, in practice wind and waves funneled right in.

Hardy people, both the sailors and the people in the town who seemed pretty equanimous about the damage to their town both the anticipation and when it happened.

 

[Channel Sailor]

why would you leave that secure port/anchorage in the first place?

The current location will be exposed soon, gotta move. I don’t recall saying it was secure.
Or

Skipper knows the yacht is well found, the weather forecast is poor, not a storm, but ok for the vessel and crew.