New standing rigging option

[zoidberg]

That innovator John Franta at Colligo Marine has just emailed me some sparse details of his new hot-off-the-press standing rigging product - Para D!
This is parallel-laid Dyneema fibres, wound to length similar to a 'selvagee strop' ( I betcha only a small handful knows about them ) then double-coated with PE or summat.

Look for yourself

It would seem to have lots going for it - except perhaps the price.

 

[Trident]

Interesting - more so is the flux at work (coincidence) that only yesterday I heard Selvagee for the first time and now here it is again

 

[HenrikH]

Dyneema high modulus seep (stretch over time). What mat be replacement frequency?

 

[greeny]

I don't, but some people set rig/shroud tension by stretch measurement method. How would they do it with this product. Are they trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist? SS wire doesn't need uv protection and (according to many insurance companies) has a life of 10yrs give or take a successful inspection. Rigging terminations are expensive enough, no doubt these will be more expensive, Maybe for modern hi tech applications but not for me. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
p.s. I'm not a Luddite, just a realist.

But then again if they can tell me it's half the price and has a longer life then maybe I'll listen.

 

[zoidberg]

Dyneema high modulus seep (stretch over time). What mat be replacement frequency?

Not quite so.

According to Marlow's Technical Manager Paul Dyer "Dyneema DM20 is a yarn with zero creep, meaning it has almost no creep under normal operating conditions. This makes it ideal for static load applications like yacht standing rigging, long-life tethers, and hangers."

My limited 'tech queries' gleaned that, for our practical purposes as standing rigging, we can effectively forget 'creep' as a problem. It is always recommended to seek technical advice about specification, discussing specific application requirements.

 

[Minerva]

One of the YouTube channels put up a video in moving to dyneema. Seemed that it loosened up when the temp drop
So had to be retightened during winter the. Loosened again in Summer. Felt like a bit of a baw ache for very limited, if any, benefit imo

 

[William_H]

The experience of a friend of mine who rerigged his 22fter with dyneema is that it did stretch initially then settled down to no stretch. The weave of the rope means that inevitably the strands must settle down to position under load. In his case case locally woven dyneema 5mm (no covering) with hand spliced ends. A very cost effective rigging. I have a back stay on a fractional rig (so not critical) of this same dyneema and very pleased with it. ol'will

 

[zoidberg]

It seems several haven't bothered to read the Look for yourself bit above where the product is described as 'Unidirectional fibres'. These are NOT braided, but parallel. Consequently, the load path is entirely along the length of the fibre-bunch - the strongest, least 'mobile' direction. That has none of the extension-under-load that braided constructions are prone to. Specific heat treatments ensure that 'stretch' - a defined property not the same as 'creep' - is also reduced to zero, under normal conditions of use.

This is an advancement in materials science.

Whether other limitations or problems in service emerge, it is certainly worth our notice and interest.

 

[vyv_cox]

It seems several haven't bothered to read the Look for yourself bit above where the product is described as 'Unidirectional fibres'. These are NOT braided, but parallel. Consequently, the load path is entirely along the length of the fibre-bunch - the strongest, least 'mobile' direction. That has none of the extension-under-load that braided constructions are prone to. Specific heat treatments ensure that 'stretch' - a defined property not the same as 'creep' - is also reduced to zero, under normal conditions of use.

This is an advancement in materials science.

Whether other limitations or problems in service emerge, it is certainly worth our notice and interest.

They don't mention terminals I think. Presumably it is not possible to splice ends on, unlike the braided type? I know a rigger/sailmaker who uses Dyneema for sheets on a racing catamaran. He uses no shackles or other connectors, simply splices them on for every race.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

They don't mention terminals I think. Presumably it is not possible to splice ends on, unlike the braided type? I know a rigger/sailmaker who uses Dyneema for sheets on a racing catamaran. He uses no shackles or other connectors, simply splices them on for every race.

The ability to ‘terminate’ your dyneema rigging yourself is a key advantage. If it’s lost that, and puts you back into the riggers hands, it’ll be a slow take up. We’ll be changing to dyneema for parts of our standing rigging. Our lower shrouds and running backstays lend themselves to it, but a good part of the reason for doing it is that we can just buy the line and make it up ourselves.

 

[Neeves]

Not quite so.

According to Marlow's Technical Manager Paul Dyer "Dyneema DM20 is a yarn with zero creep, meaning it has almost no creep under normal operating conditions. This makes it ideal for static load applications like yacht standing rigging, long-life tethers, and hangers."

My limited 'tech queries' gleaned that, for our practical purposes as standing rigging, we can effectively forget 'creep' as a problem. It is always recommended to seek technical advice about specification, discussing specific application requirements.

What are 'normal operating conditions'? and what is, or are, 'almost no creep'

Standing rigging, for a yacht that is used, is not under static load. If it was under static load it would not fail.

Or to put another way - are we talking .... zero creep, no deformation, no thinning at 20 or 35 degrees C?

On the positive side - some one will be sitting 'there' now working out how to splice a parallel laid dyneema.

There is nothing new - I have a parallel laid kevlar sling supplied by X Yachts, as standard , when they lifted, 50 years ago, (may still do) their yachts with the single strop passing through the cabin roof and attached to one of the, specific, keel bolts. No fancy PE coating just a canvas sleeve.

DM 20 may well not creep, under 'normal operating conditions' - but technology does.

Think of carbon sails - then - true exoticism - common place now. Add in technology creep and in 15 years time ......

Just be glad we are all young and be patient . Time will bring it within grasp.

Jonathan

 

[Chiara’s slave]

There must be some simple way to terminate parallel fibre rigging. Obviously, if you’re a rigging company it’s of little importance, in fact it could exist and the man fails to mention it for commercial reasons, hard to blame anyone for that. I’d love to find it suitable for our mast diamond rigging, it might chafe less.

 

[Neeves]

. Specific heat treatments ensure that 'stretch' - a defined property not the same as 'creep' - is also reduced to zero, under normal conditions of use.



Whether other limitations or problems in service emerge, it is certainly worth our notice and interest.

I agree with the last statement.

Depends on the rigging but it would not be uncommon for rigging to suffer from repetitive 'sawing' - sheets (eg when tacking) - which will create heat and re temper any specific heat treatment.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

From a brief and cursory Google search using 'Dyneema DM 20' my understanding is:

Colligo are using parallel fibres, of DM20, so a low (or no) creep fibre with no constructional stretch. Others are using braided DM20 - which presumably can be spliced - again no creep fibres but introducing some constructional stretch. From the images in Zoidberg's link Colligo have devised a way to securely terminate the parallel fibres - with a proprietary fitting - as Chiara mentions you cannot blame them for not being expansive - but it will not remain secret for long.

Jonathan

 

[B27]

I've kind of stopped keeping up with the high tech boats, but weren't some using Vectran ages ago?
A dozen or more years ago I had a dinghy with adjustable raking rig, I used Vectran for key parts of that.

a quick google suggests carbon rod rigging is the thing these days?

 

[dunedin]

I've kind of stopped keeping up with the high tech boats, but weren't some using Vectran ages ago?
A dozen or more years ago I had a dinghy with adjustable raking rig, I used Vectran for key parts of that.

a quick google suggests carbon rod rigging is the thing these days?

The Open 60s leaving the dock tomorrow to start the Vendee Globe might give a reasonable indication of modern rigging materials.

 

[Roberto]

PBO standing rigging is usually made that way, made to measure by winding continuous unidirectional fibers, then sleeved for UV protection.
It seems to me that for a cruising boat, ratio cost/marginal utility is well beyond any reasonable level, but hey, boats are personal toys

 

[zoidberg]

My detailed knowledge - and therefore understanding - of the 'how' is limited to what I can see from several online promo clips posted by Colligo Marine. Roberto^ above and some others have grasped the concept. It seems the terminals are set up first, with 'bearing points' distanced exactly as specified, then the continuous monofilament line is applied, looped around 100-200-300 times as required. Then the PU coverings are applied over the multiple parallel strands. Quite how the ends of the continuous line are secured is not known. Perhaps a knot, or a dab of glue. Perhaps it doesn't matter.

It seems unlikely that this process lends itself to DIY construction. While it IS possible to make eye-splices in lines with a parallel fibre core, it is far from easy and the results are unlikely to achieve all the elevated Break Load one might hope for, from the material's spec.

I would expect DIY construction of one's new dyneema shrouds, etc., to rely on single-braid dyneema, where heat-treated DM20 fibre products already offer a very low initial 'stretch' and zero residual 'creep' ( both defined technical terms, not colloquial ), and quality control is manageable.

 

[Wansworth]

Hasn’t “Tally Ho” dynamee standing rigging..?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Hasn’t “Tally Ho” dynamee standing rigging..?

Lots of gaffers do these days, it lends itself well to that application. There must be half a dozen or more in Yarmouth who’ve made the switch, and those I’ve spoken to are pleased with the results. Just the braided type though, no fancy pants parallel fibre stuff. I have seen a cat with it, a Gunboat. Which gives people a good idea of the price point, the boat cost nearly £2 million. Like all such tech, it will filter down. Each ‘wire’ is custom made, but there’s nothing magical about it. When more riggers are able to do it, it will become more affordable.

I kind of realised what I’d seen retrospectively there.