New sails - laminate or radial dacron?

[flaming]

Am I alone in considering vectra/vectron/dyneema sails particularly horrible to handle? I've found that even to the extent that they've been quite hard to gather in a blow, partly because of the stiffness but also because they're just bloody hard to get hold of if you haven't got an edge of the sail.

True, but with a main in a stackpack and a Jib on a furler it's not really much of an issue.

 

[Lucky Duck]

The one thing I wouldn't do would be to go back to Dacron. With the one possible exception of Ocean cruising I think that's a technology that has had its day.

Agreed, although as the thread further down the page - the forum's "wisdom" is that laminates quickly start delaminating and suffer from mildew. I'd suggest at least one of the contributors ought to know better.

 

[westhinder]

A couple of thoughts...

1st, the days of laminates having issues with mildew are really in the past. I wouldn't let that figure in your decision this time.
....
The one thing I wouldn't do would be to go back to Dacron. With the one possible exception of Ocean cruising I think that's a technology that has had its day.

Flaming, you seem to be more optimistic about laminates than the sailmakers I've spoken to. They say that mildew issues have diminished, but not been eliminated and they all conceded that durability of laminates is still their weak point.
I do not have extensive experience of laminates, but the couple of boats I've sailed on did confirm that after a few seasons of extensive cruising laminates fare worse than dacron.

 

[Angele]

True, but with a main in a stackpack and a Jib on a furler it's not really much of an issue.

+1.

Apart from flaking them into the stackpack, the only time I handle my sails are the first and last days of my sailing season.

 

[flaming]

Flaming, you seem to be more optimistic about laminates than the sailmakers I've spoken to. They say that mildew issues have diminished, but not been eliminated and they all conceded that durability of laminates is still their weak point.
I do not have extensive experience of laminates, but the couple of boats I've sailed on did confirm that after a few seasons of extensive cruising laminates fare worse than dacron.

The OP is replacing his sails after 13 years. My Dad's (much higher mileage) sister ship was sold last year with perfectly serviceable 2005 Sanders laminates still going strong. (And with no mildew btw).

How much more longevity do you really want in the sails for a coastal cruiser? Especially when you're comparing with Dacron, which simply won't have its shape after that sort of lifespan.

Question for the OP is really - you've had these sails for 13 years and they would have been a fairly early laminate so nothing like as durable or mildew proof as today's examples. Do you actually see yourself still owning this boat in another 13 years? If not there would be zero point in compromising performance for longevity.

 

[Angele]

A couple of thoughts...

1st, the days of laminates having issues with mildew are really in the past. I wouldn't let that figure in your decision this time.

As you know, my Dad had a Dufour 40 for many years, and it did a lot more miles than you're reporting with Sanders laminates. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Sanders again based on that experience, but I would definitely change the setup. He had a 120% genoa on a furler, which was a pain to tack but being a genoa had a very hollow leach and so really didn't have the sail area to justify the hassle. However, I think anything bigger than that would have been too much sail area for what was, by cruising standards, a pretty powered up boat.
So I would without question be specifying a non overlapping jib with vertical battens cut to sheet to the front couple of feet of the track and to sheet inside the shrouds. I'd suspect you could get almost the same area as a roller furler 120% genoa. I think you'd get a real performance boost, and tacking would be transformed. If you added some inhaulers as well, you could well embarrass a fair few race boats. But only do that if you have the deep keel. The shallow keel, I found, couldn't live with the point that the rig was capable of producing and we sailed upwind with a fairly eased setup to get best VMG.

Having used North 3Di (and 3DL beforehand) on the race boat, I'd be very interested in what the cruising version was like. I had a quick look at the Boat Show recently, and it looks good, but I'd expect it to be pricier than a "conventional" laminate. If you don't like the price then you won't go wrong with Pete Sanders.

The one thing I wouldn't do would be to go back to Dacron. With the one possible exception of Ocean cruising I think that's a technology that has had its day.

Absolutely. I've been very happy with my sails from Sanders, and the prices he has quoted for DCX and for Pro-Radial Dacron both seem reasonable to me. The earlier posts have made me think I should also get prices for Hydranet and Vectran cloth too.

Standard rig, deep keel. I think my genoa is even bigger than your dad's. I understood it was 130%, but I may be wrong. (I doubt Peter made numerous different sizes of genny).

Don't forget, I'm cruising, not racing. So, if I'm coming down a narrow channel with a headwind, the engine will be on. I won't be short tacking across the channel! I wouldn't describe it as a pain to tack, but the person on the (new) working winch needs to wait until the sail has actually gone through the wind before pulling in the sheet otherwise the sheet gets caught on the base of the spi pole. As a cruiser, I can live with that.

My current arrangement is set up to sheet outside the shrouds. As you are aware, the genoa car track on the D40 allows the set up to be done either way. But (again, as a cruiser), changing from one to the other would be a bit of a pain. I'm pretty sure that you are correct in saying that I could sail closer to the wind with the sail inside the shrouds and some inhaulers.

Being a big sail, it does spend a lot of its life partially furled. But, I appreciate the extra sail area when the wind is light and I am carrying a full cargo of wine back from Cherbourg.

When you say "no Dacron", are you referring to standard Dacron or to all versions (including the pro-radial one that Peter has quoted for me)?

 

[Angele]

Agreed, although as the thread further down the page - the forum's wisdom is that laminates quickly start delaminating and suffer from mildew. I'd suggest at least one of the contributors ought to know better.

Flaming, you seem to be more optimistic about laminates than the sailmakers I've spoken to. They say that mildew issues have diminished, but not been eliminated and they all conceded that durability of laminates is still their weak point.
I do not have extensive experience of laminates, but the couple of boats I've sailed on did confirm that after a few seasons of extensive cruising laminates fare worse than dacron.

The OP is replacing his sails after 13 years. My Dad's (much higher mileage) sister ship was sold last year with perfectly serviceable 2005 Sanders laminates still going strong. (And with no mildew btw).

How much more longevity do you really want in the sails for a coastal cruiser? Especially when you're comparing with Dacron, which simply won't have its shape after that sort of lifespan.

Question for the OP is really - you've had these sails for 13 years and they would have been a fairly early laminate so nothing like as durable or mildew proof as today's examples. Do you actually see yourself still owning this boat in another 13 years? If not there would be zero point in compromising performance for longevity.

So, to tie these 3 together. Do I see myself still owning Angele in 13 years time? Possibly not. But definitely no plans to sell in the next 5. And I want a set of sails that will still be performing as well at the end of those 5 years as at the beginning. So, plain Dacron is definitely out.

I have no concerns about the longevity of Sanders' laminates. 13 years and still going strong (with old laminate technology) ain't bad. No sign of delamination at all. That is a reflection of my boat usage - relatively low mileage and I take care not to let the sails flog. I don't for one minute assume that the mildew problems have been eliminated. Maybe I was unlucky with the genny going blotchy after just a couple of seasons. But, in the scheme of things, sail performance ranks way ahead of appearance for me.

Little Grebe, which other thread are you referring to? I must have missed it.

 

[westhinder]

The OP is replacing his sails after 13 years. My Dad's (much higher mileage) sister ship was sold last year with perfectly serviceable 2005 Sanders laminates still going strong. (And with no mildew btw).

How much more longevity do you really want in the sails for a coastal cruiser? Especially when you're comparing with Dacron, which simply won't have its shape after that sort of lifespan.

Question for the OP is really - you've had these sails for 13 years and they would have been a fairly early laminate so nothing like as durable or mildew proof as today's examples. Do you actually see yourself still owning this boat in another 13 years? If not there would be zero point in compromising performance for longevity.

Over 10 years and high mileage, to my knowledge that is exceptional for laminates to be in good nick and that is also what I took away from my discussions with sailmakers. Which is why I opted for a hybrid Dyneema/dacron genoa. I hope I will be able to let you know in a couple of years how it behaves.
For my main, which is fully battened and hence does not suffer from flogging, the advice for my programme of hopefully extensive cruising was a first quality dacron, which is what I went with. Time will tell.

 

[flaming]

When you say "no Dacron", are you referring to standard Dacron or to all versions (including the pro-radial one that Peter has quoted for me).

Yes, I think so. Even if it's a "clever" Dacron it still isn't going to hold its shape as well as a laminate.

Regarding the overlapper. Feel free to take or leave my advice, but my feeling would be that on that boat you would lose very little area by reducing the overlap but adding some roach using vertical battens. And the sail itself would be much more efficient and so the boat overall faster. Only possible weakness would be in winds that you would probably be motoring in anyway, or downwind in less than about 15 knots. But then we'd be flying the kite on any sort of passage in that sort of breeze.

Certainly if we'd kept the boat that was the jib that I was going to spec when the old one finally had it.

 

[flaming]

Over 10 years and high mileage, to my knowledge that is exceptional for laminates to be in good nick and that is also what I took away from my discussions with sailmakers.

Yes, I was very impressed. Both sails had a bit of surgery to the leach where the stitching had given way, but the basic cloth seemed absolutely fine.
There's a few pics of them from JR's advert that sold the boat last year. (And before anyone says anything, I am aware that the Genoa halyard could have done with a bit more tension!)

http://www.jryachts.com/yachts-for-sale/dufour-40-sold/1262509

I really miss that boat.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Little Grebe, which other thread are you referring to? I must have missed it.

This - http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?488109-North-Sails

 

[DJE]

Just ordered a new main from Kemps in Vektron. Found it very hard as a layman to understand the choice of fabrics. But in the end I take the advice of the sailmaker. This will be the fourth sail that they have made for me over the years and I've never had cause for any serious complaints. Had a cruising laminate No. 2 genoa on the previous boat which had mildew problems although winter cleaning helped.

 

[Angele]

This - http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?488109-North-Sails

Thanks. Got it now. :encouragement: