New sails - couple of fitting issues - some advice please

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mickyp168

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Hi
I have just bought a new set of sails for my boat which is a 23' mast head sloop. On fitting the new sails I have a couple of issues I would like advice on before I may need to speak the sail makers who are a very reputable company. Firstly, the old sail ,which I think was at some point second hand from a Benateau, had 17 sliders up the mast the new one has 10. This was not specified in the order so its the sail makers design. Obviously 17 sliders holds the sail very close to the mast. Is 10 sliders ok? How important is this? Secondly the old sail has a rope foot 10mm in diameter which held the sail very snuggly in the boom groove. The new one has a rope foot ,but the rope is not exposed but enclosed in the lining at the sails foot. It slides into the groove ok but doesn't seem to want to hold the foot in the groove tightly. I havn't measured it exactly but it seems less than 10mm which was specified on the fitting form. Therefore I fitted it as an 'open foot'? The foot of the sail not in the groove but free and the end secured by rope tightly to the end of the boom so there is no outhaul. Is this a big deal? I only ask as I am in France and the sail maker is in the UK so a return is a costly delay if not necessary. I took the boat out and she sailed very well. I am purely a weekend pleasure sailor, so I am wondering if this maybe a mountain out of a molehill so to speak. Would greatly appreciate advice from someone who knows more about sails than I do.

Thank you
Mick
 
I can't see any problem on either front. The attachment of the clew to the boom end should be adjustable, that's what an outhaul is. Loose footed mains are the way to go anyway.
 
Is there a slug slide at the clew?
If the main is cut and reinforced to be a traditional bolt rope foot, it may not be ideal to put all the load on the clew ring/eye.
The clew patches are generally different between the two types of sail.
A 'shelf foot' sail is between the two, the shelf has a bolt rope but carries none of the leech tension.
All the leech tension generally goes via a slug slide or similar.

A chat with a sail maker might be worthwhile IMHO.
 
My loose footed main is held on to the boom at the clew with a velcro strap. It still has an outhaul which can be adjusted. I don't see why your's couldn't.
 
Spyro said:
My loose footed main is held on to the boom at the clew with a velcro strap. It still has an outhaul which can be adjusted. I don't see why your's couldn't.
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Mine too. Ring the sailmaker to get him to send you a velcro boom strap in the post.
Other than that, all sounds fine to me.
 
A loose-footed sail on a boom with no outhaul? Sounds odd to me. And a bolt rope in the foot only slightly too small to go in the boom sail groove? I would be checking precisely what was ordered against what has been made. I don't see how an old sail not made for the boat affects this really, unless you sent it as a pattern to the sailmaker?

As others have suggested, a sail with a bolt rope in the foot has to have extra cloth just above to allow the sail to take up its aerofoil shape at that level. A loose-footed sail doesn't need that; indeed its presence may lead to a poor sail shape just at the foot I imagine?

New sails make a remarkable difference to how a boat sails so she'll sail well anyhow. But she may sail even better if you sort this out?
 
If you're not happy with the sail being used 'loose-footed' you can always fit some sliders to run in the boom groove. There is not much tension on them because most of the 'pull' is taken up by the tack and the clew fastening. An outhaul of sorts can easily be fitted between the boom end and the clew cringle. I knocked up something similar for my old Centaur using a captive slide and a small pulley (from a windsurfer sail) to add purchase for the lashing.
 
The lesser number of slides should not be a problem ,nowadays it's usually arranged to space a suitable flake (fold) of sail cloth evenly on the mast .Also to allow the reef cringle positioning on the horns .If sliders are too close to the cringle it can be difficult to manipulate it over the reef horn.
The sail has been made with a bolt rope internal in the tabling .This means it's designed to be fitted in the boom .Not loose footed .The sailmaker may be under the assumption that the boom groove gap is 4 mm or. Less so it's unlikely that a rope of greater Diametre of 6 to 7mm will fall out .If the bolt rope is fairly soft it may squash up into the groove and jamb if not secured around the clew eye and under the boom.If you don't have an adjustable outhaul arrangement ,the clew obviously lashed previously .Contact your sailmaker if you feel you need a Velcro strap to hold the sail clew down to the spar.I would not recommend using the sail with its current bolt rope foot out of the spar ,it won't be the right shape .
Cindy
 
mickyp168 said:
It slides into the groove ok but doesn't seem to want to hold the foot in the groove tightly.
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Have you tried to slide the whole length of the sail into the boom groove, or just a couple of feet to see if it pulls out or not? By comparison with headsail foils, it might be easy to pull a short length of sail out of the groove but perhaps not whenl the *entire* foot is in the slot.

If you can pull the foot out in places when it's properly rigged, then there's definitely an issue.

Cheers
 
Thanks to everyone who has offered advice. I have had a lengthy discussion with the sail maker and it transpires that main sails are now predominately made loose footed unless a rope foot is specifically requested and that has been so for about 10 years now. I now have an understanding of how the sail should be fitted to the boom and the role of the outhaul. Its a wonder that you just never stop learning and the advice from people on this forum is always awe inspiring.
 
mickyp168 said:
Thanks to everyone who has offered advice. I have had a lengthy discussion with the sail maker and it transpires that main sails are now predominately made loose footed unless a rope foot is specifically requested and that has been so for about 10 years now. I now have an understanding of how the sail should be fitted to the boom and the role of the outhaul. Its a wonder that you just never stop learning and the advice from people on this forum is always awe inspiring.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't be Jeckells would it? When I got my new main they forgot to include the boom strap, They were quick enough to post it out though.
 
As OP may have discovered I think all the problems are with the outhaul and specifically how close the clew eyelet is to the boom. It should be really close son that main sheet load is carried through the clew eyelet. If the eyelet is allowed to sit up from the boom then the bolt rope will end up taking load and likely pull out or jamb in the slot.
The use a double sided velcro is good in that it allows very close eylet to boom. I got my double sided velcro from ahberdashery sold as cable ties. About 4 wraps is incredibly strong. The other nice thing about double sided velcro is that it gets the boom as high as possible maybe reducing the number of head injuries. But OP wil;l need a decnt outhaul arrangement. either lashing to a saddle at the end of the boom or an in built outhaul tackle for easy adjustment. good luck olewill
 
Thanks for your advice. I was considering tying the clew to the boom through the eyelet with a piece of rope. Velcro is a much better option! My mistake was I ordered a rope foot sail not knowing it would be loose footed by design these days. So I was trying to rig it as a rope foot. As I said you learn something everyday in this game. Also I am told that modern sails have a reinforced area around the clew now as it is taking extra load because of the loose foot. Oh well, onwards and upwards, thanks again.
Cheers Mick
 
Yes I was surprised. I had no idea they don't make rope feet anymore and the order form asked for the diameter of the rope on the foot of the old sail. So why ask if you are not going to make it? Also not everyone is an expert to know such things. Its a matter of better communication by the company primarily I think. But I learned something years ago that boats are never an exact science ever!
Cheers Mick
 
Something is not sounding right with this. You ordered a rope foot you got a rope foot but the maker is saying it's loose footed. I think it has to be one or the other for the shape and adjustment to be right.
 
Yes , as they say here in France, cest bizarre . They say that all modern sails are now loose footed in any case. You fill out a very thorough set of measurements they use these by a computer programme to design the sails best suited to your boat. Mine is out of production now I expect if it wasn't they would be on a data base. I am quite happy with the sails now I know how to rig them and on my test sail even with them not properly rigged due to my misunderstanding the boat sailed very well.
 
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