new RYA training charts

Birdseye

Birdseye

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What do you think of them, particularly the instructors amongst you.

Dont know whether I'm turning into a grumpy old man, but they seem to me to be anything but a step forward. Instead they are unrealistic, mean that intsructoirs have no past papers for practise, and have to work out a complete list of new exercises, cant use illustrative anecdotes " last time I was in Newton Ferrars etc" and have funny bits like southern hemisphere ports with a time difference of an hour and just a few miles away.

And the question has to be - why? Why not put the course price up by a fiver and haggle a free real chart from the three competing UK printers of them. One of the three might even pay to have his charts in front of the DS class who are often just starting.

Am I just an old luddite or do you agree?
 
I tend to agree, for anyone in the south of the UK, it is a real pain. The need to construct new exercises is also a problem, this should have been covered by the RYA. I think they intended to, it just did not happen. It would have been easy to set up an 'exchange' of exercises on the instructors website, why not? (Apart from the delay in reading anything on the RYA web!)

On the other hand, if you were a student (sorry, we are meant to say 'learner') in Australia, what is the relevance of the English Channel?
 
Having seen both the old and the new I was encouraged by the new charts.
1. The old ones were unreaslitic - taking existing charts and altering them was, I thought a bit off. Numpties "using" existing knowledge on false charts?
2. No-one has seen the new charts before when they do a course, so there are no preconceived notions of the area. It's like using a chart of a strange area for the first time, Good idea. Find all the info from the chart and the almanac for the area you are in!!
The instructor and I had a good long chat about it, and were pleased to find several errors in the exercises given.
Very realistic I thought.
 
Search the RYA site on 'instructor' you will find a page called 'instructor resources'. It might need a password.

A frequent cause of confusion is the colour coding of time zones - more than a few answers are wrong!
 
The previous issue of RYA Training Charts were a big improvement on what went before. So also were the Course Notes booklets.

The first issue of Electronic Training packages was a mess, from the point of view of 'newbies' to chartwork and from an ICT Training Aid perspective. And it's not as if the RYA Training peeps weren't told..... the 'so-called' consultation exercise paid a great deal of attention to what the Hydrographic Office wanted, and not a whole lot to what Shorebased Course Instructors/Tutors wanted.

I'm aware that the 'beta' product was properly 'beta tested' by several groups of pro IT students - studying at Levels 3 and 4 - as course projects. A good few of those were already earning good money writing games software, all of them knew good from bad in application design and usability, and all were able to contribute usefully to the consolidated reports that went to RYA Towers.

IMHO it's still clunky and difficult to use, unless one has a considerable prior background in using such stuff, and is a 'barrier to learning' for those who are lacking in computer confidence - of which there are several in each full study group.

The previous Training Charts had the merit of representing places and areas everyone in Britain knew, after a fashion. It was easy to illustrate, say, the charted features on the approaches to Dartmouth using a few sea-level and air photographs within a Powerpoint presentation ( daymark, seamarks, rocks, etc ) so that 'newbies' could relate that to the vertical-to-horizontal picture they were trying to build from scrutinising the unfamiliar chart.

Can't do that now, with the new, wholly-synthetic charts, which do have some merit in some ways - particularly for the experienced chart user learnign new techniques.

IMHO.....


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"The first issue of Electronic Training packages was a mess, from the point of view of 'newbies' to chartwork and from an ICT Training Aid perspective. And it's not as if the RYA Training peeps weren't told..... the 'so-called' consultation exercise paid a great deal of attention to what the Hydrographic Office wanted, and not a whole lot to what Shorebased Course Instructors/Tutors wanted."

The requirement for Electronic Chartwork, is 2hrs for D/S & 3 hrs CS/YM, each student, spending time being taught on a computer (s). Cannot be done as a class, since there are recommended maximum bods/computer. Nothing seems to have been withdrawn from the pre-electronic chart syllabus (40 hrs), so something must be discarded.

Having recently run a D/S course using these charts, the initial impression, is that they are biased towards the Southern Hemisphere, although Portsmouth Harbour is clearly included (Port Fraser).
Times, no longer BST, but DST (Daylight saving time).
Also, some slight confusion, in that heights are measured from HAT (Highest Astronomical Tide) - opposite of LAT, but answers are given in the recognised 'above MHWS' (although the recent RYA mag reduced this to HWS).

Yes, confusing to be out of usual environment, but how did students sailing in areas other than the Dover Straights (earlier version) /Falmouth/Channel Islands feel about them?

One of the main complaints, see previous postings on MoBo Forum, is that the content of courses seems to be primarily for 'raggies'.

Oh yes, almost forgot, the 'almanac' includes terms like SCEND. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Well I suppose if we wanted some specifically mobo content, we could do an exercise on high speed navigation - how to run the Hamble river at 15 knots! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Joking apart, there isnt a lot which is peculiar to mobos except the way you do navigate at speed, so I'm not sure what the problem is when they say its focussed on raggies. Are they saying we ought to miss out the raggie stuff which isnt relevant to mobies?

Going back to the new course, has anyone yet run the YM meteorology exam? Its supposed to be 1.5 hrs but not one member of my class took longer than 45 mins and I was struck by the "thinness" of the paper. Fair enough, this years was a better than average class but I reckon the exam needs to be made more difficult.
 
Agreed, it has been significantly dumbed down compared to the previous versions - lacking the practicality of 'You are in the Helford River, planning a passage to Cherbourg' type exercise.

In fact I think the Day Skipper assessments are covering a wider range, and longer (not that I object to that), while the YM is getting easier and shorter....and as for the chartwork, secondary ports have no fears at all, the exercises are approaching the irrelevant.

Maybe there is a plan developing here? Or am I beginning to sound like my father....?
 
[ QUOTE ]
The requirement for Electronic Chartwork, is 2hrs for D/S & 3 hrs CS/YM, each student, spending time being taught on a computer (s).

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Running these course in an FE College environment, with the intro of this mandatory requirement, one had to go to the College management and ask for the use of an IT lab for 2 to 3 sessions for each course, and funded time for the techies to put the stuff onto an appropriate server, then acquire ( and check ) 'logons', then go spend some time in that lab to find which workspaces worked and which didn't - which took time, of course.

The the College's management asked *when* this was wanted, then to determine that the facilities were allocated to - believe it or not - an IT 'vocational' group, who had paid the whole whack for their evenings! Then they indicated what the allocated book cost of using the required facilities would be, as they are required to do - and that meant the whole RYA DS and YM programme was economically non-viable for that College. Cross-subsidies were not an option, in the new constrained economic reality.

A short time after that issue emerged, it was discovered that the government subsidy on such courses had been 'pulled', and that put the 'kybosh' on running them at my local FE College.

I understand that couple of neighbouring institutions have managed 'to take up the slack', but I also hear that there are close to 40 in each group - each paying close to £300, from around £120. Teaching effectively in an IT Lab situation requires a whole different set of skills than teaching in other modes. Are we to assume that the cost of this CPD has been met, or are the guys and galls still involved just 'winging it'? Is that what the RYS intended, or are they just ignoring the reality?

I considered it impossible to give *any* individual attention with such numbers, as is always needed by someone, so dissatisfaction and failure rates inevitably go up.

I decided I'm not in the biz. of doing a mediocre job on this, so I declined the responsibility - as did scores of others, I understand.

How do sailing schools, with very little IT resources, manage? Or do they just gather everyone around the one old £100 PII PC in the corner, for half-an-hour?

What have others found?

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Are allocated times possible?

From the RYA “Guidance notes for Shorebased Courses”

3.7 (5) For the electronic chart plotter, the minimum requirement for student contact time with the chart plotter is:

D/S Shorebased course – 2hrs

C/S-YM - 3hrs

In the classroom, a maximum of 3 students to a computer at any one time is permitted.

(6) “Each course should involve a minimum of 40hrs teaching and allow sufficient time for assessment papers. 24 x 2hr evening sessions is usual for centres running evening classes. A five day intensive course is possible for Day Skipper. For C/S (&YM) a minimum of 7 days is usually required.”

So, from the above, the 5 days D/S, if following evening classes times (48hrs), should perhaps be 5 x 10hrs + lunch/comfort breaks, minimum.

No school I know, follows this time or runs a C/S-Y/M Shorebased course over 7 days.

In the Logbook (G15) it gives details of the D/S & C/S-YM Shorebased course syllabuses & “minimum time” to teach each topic.

For DS this is 40 hrs & no mention of electronic chart plotter time or assessment papers (another 5 - 7hrs ).

The C/S & YM Shorebased course is 37 hours & no mention of chartplotter, which should then give another 3hrs chartplotter + 3 hrs assessment (37 hrs minimum + 6hrs) which is not 7 days.

(Also, 3 students/time at a computer for 2 – 3 hrs minimum, must mean more course time if you have 5-6 students, or more computers.)

Schools running a ‘9 day D/S Theory + Practical Course’, also need to get the the minimum 2 x 1.5 hrs for the assessments (+ marking) + the 2 hrs minimum electronic chart time into the schedule. These courses usually (if full boat) run with a 5 students, therefore 2 computers (2hrs) or 2x2hrs sessions (4hrs), allocated to electronic charts.
Is it possible? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Dunno about others .... but I ....

Got completely confused by the thread .... it seemed to go from New Charts used to syllabus and schedules .... and I lost it then ....

Oh Well - maybe thats the way RYA wants Courses to be then ? Confuse em going in .... brainwash on way out ???? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Are allocated times possible?

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fully conversant with the contents of the Cruising Syllabus and Guidance to Instructors, both written and verbal, and I share 'alant's' concerns entirely. Other chief instructors have recently voiced the same, after checking over their shoulders. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif


After a decade and more of teaching the RYA Shorebased stuff - as a well-qualified and frequently checked-out pro educator - I found the constraints on 'time available Vs ever-growing syllabus content' to be irreconcilable with teaching to the individual's needs. Every last course I've held had someone or other with what are called 'special learning needs' - whether that is severe dyslexia, dyscalculia, access, language, unplanned flu, pregnancy, or strong underconfidence - and every last one has had the presentation methods considered and modified where appropriate for him/her. It is not an option in today's educational jungle - it's simply right.

Some years ago, one could make time for the individual, and that often took the form of 'Can you come in on a Saturday morning, and we'll work through this stuff again...?' Unpaid. Of course.

There were usually a couple of 'CatchUp Sessions' for those who'd missed the odd session here and there, due to work pressures or illness. Sat morns, again. Until College Senior Management asked 'Could you not do those any more - we have to pay IT and Premises staff to come in for you.' Problem was, although enough adults were willing to pay the true commercial cost, one still couldn't get the true commercial support from a College environment used to 'robbing Peter to pay Paul'. And in sailing schools, there's no chance whatever.

If you discover that one particular group is struggling with the met stuff, but not the chartwork ( or vice versa ) it is no longer practicable to shoehorn in an extra hour on met, or whatever, for one knows that one is going to have a major problem getting the allocated chartplotter time to work, as advertised and as expected by the numpties in the RYA. Any 'spare time' one can create will be needed then.

I made use of a lot of short A/V training materials - vids, Powerpoint presentations with lots of photos, 'realia' or real stuff like Imray charts, CA Almanacs, anchors, online stuff from the RNLI, MCA, Met Office, YBW, etc - to get the message across faster and more effectively than 'chalk and talk'. But there is a limit.

Effective group teaching always requires one to peer over the shoulders of every individual, and occasionally say 'Let's go over that again, from a different angle.' Perhaps not for everyone, but justified for a few - who have all paid their fees in solid Sterling, too.

And you do require to shift the emphasis a bit here and there, according to the needs and make-up of the group..... Some will be 50:50 raggies and mobo-ers. Another group will have a lot of sea-anglers. The next might be almost entirely from a local sail cruising club, each with his own boat and his long-suffering wifey/crew in tow. There might be a little old lady, recently widowed, who always had sailed with her husband, and now wants to find the confidence to continue, 'cos she loves sailing. There might be the youngest of three sea-angler brothers, the other two having done RYA courses elsewhere, and he's come on your course 'cos they are ribbing him about 'being useless'. Different needs, different delivery, and any good tutor could/would handle that, giving a little needed 'extra' to any individual as required.

When Bill Anderson was around, you could talk to him about time-pressure and priorities. He'd rarely agree with you, of course ( Dartmouth instructor), but you'd always come away with a relevant idea or two that he'd picked up somewhere. Not these days....

If you doubt that, have a look - for example - in your 'Cruising Logbook' where the syllabi are listed, and tell me where the time is allocated for teaching/learning about Time Zones and Standards ( UT/GMT/FST/DST, etc. ) then recall that conversion of Time Standards is built into the DS Chartwork papers. The RYA blithely assume everyone is born with a clear understanding of this often-vexing subject.... and it's not as if they haven't been approached about such anomalies. They simply ignore them.

The SOLAS V Regulations were shoehorned into my courses as they were published, 'cos they mattered to my students. I expect to see 'AIS' introduced as a topic in the RYA DS and YM syllabi soon. Where is the time to be found? What gets binned or cut to a useless level? And what happens when someone asks questions at the end of the allocated half-hour?

Those who teach this and similar stuff will recognise the difficulties. Those who are recent recipients will also now recognise some of them, too.

Think on this, for a minute. Someone with an RYA-YM sustificate makes a cock-up, due to 'tired and emotional' or exhausted/hypothermic. The RNLI pulls several bodies out of the Channel; they tell the MCA, who tell the Dept of Transport. At Ministry level, that passes across to the Dept for Education; who phone the College Principal personally. You come in on Monday morning, to a stand-up interview - "You certified this individual last April as safe. His certificate has this College's stamp and my signature on. Now he's dead, he's taken three others with him, and there's a pack of journalists outside my College baying for a sacrifice. Explain yourself....."

Er, that didn't happen to me - but it could do!

There will surely be some who post on here 'We didn't need any of that when I was a lad! We just wrapped us ex-WD raincoat a bit tighter, took a firm grip on't wooden tiller, re-lit us pipe, and steered for yonder star...' Well, me too.... but the world has moved on, and if I was forking out £300-odd these days, I'd want a bit more professionalism out of the RYA and its ill-paid, over-worked, misunderstood and much-maligned volunteer tutors. Most of whom have decades of successful sea-going behind them....

It's not impossible.....


Finis rant.

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