New Rig for 15 foot dinghy.....

[Romeo]

Planning on changing the rig on my shetland style double ender. I want to move the mast forward to make it simpler for two people to row at the same time. The current rig is not original (I am moving the mast to a position where it has been some point in the past. Anyway I am mulling over whether to go for a single sailed balanced lug, a gunter sloop, or a standing lug sloop.

The mast and yard are going to be a little shorter than the currently are, because I want to fit the whole rig into the boat when in such a way that will not interfere with rowing. All very longwinded, but the short term question is has anyone used a sail like this:

Effectively a topsail sewn onto a mailsail, so that the rig hoists in one go, but effectively with two yards. Does it sail effecienty. Does it give the advantages of the modern "fat head" dinghy rigs? What are the downsides? Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

[DownWest]

What you have in the pic, is boomless gunter with a 'battern' to give a bit more area, all on a Drascombe. Also it has stays.
If rowing is your main interest, then some sort of lug rig would be better, as no stays and fairly short spars that would fit in the boat, while rowing.
You say Shetland style, bit more specific? I have an Oughtred double ender with gunter sloop rig. Quite a lot of string, but it does point well.
Moving masts, also moves centres of effort, so more info on the boat and rig would help.

 

[Romeo]

I can live with stays if it is going to considerably improve the sailing performance because it would be possible to drop the mast back the way just letting go of the forestay, and leaving the other stays in place. So I don't rule out a stayed rig, although I do recognise the advantages of going unstayed. I want a boom, but the other apsects of that drascombe sail do interest me.

The boat is a fibreglass mould from a racing shetland boat. Long shallow keel as part of the hull shape, rather than a centreboard, and I suspect the centre of effort being moved a bit will not matter to much. (And for all you doubters, she actually sails pretty well with no plate, with no more leeway and pointing not too badly compared to similar sized boats with flat bottoms and a plate.... a sailing performance that I hope I do not muck up too much with changing rigs)

What you have in the pic, is boomless gunter with a 'battern' to give a bit more area, all on a Drascombe. Also it has stays.
If rowing is your main interest, then some sort of lug rig would be better, as no stays and fairly short spars that would fit in the boat, while rowing.
You say Shetland style, bit more specific? I have an Oughtred double ender with gunter sloop rig. Quite a lot of string, but it does point well.
Moving masts, also moves centres of effort, so more info on the boat and rig would help.

 

[DownWest]

My rig is keel stepped and, as you say, I just release the f'stay and the rest remains attached. But if I row, I, just truss up the boom with the yard lowered and it gives me room. I could stash it all, but I don't row much and my boat is quite tender, so getting it down would be a bit tricky in any waves. Mast is the same length as the boat at 15ft, so would have to stick out at an angle. To see the rig, Google Classic Marine and look under designs for Whilley Tern.

Drascombes have a bit of a rep for being slow, which might account for the arrangement in your photo. Looks good.
I have enough sail area, so not tempted.
DW

 

[tidclacy]

(I am moving the mast to a position where it has been some point in the past. )

Why I wonder was it moved maybe because she did not sail well?

 

[Romeo]

(I am moving the mast to a position where it has been some point in the past. )

Why I wonder was it moved maybe because she did not sail well?

Haha. Maybe, but that is not going to stop me from having fun reorganising the rig to suit my own needs better! What rig is that on your scow? Too small for me to make out if it is a standing lug for a balanced lug. Is the mast stayed or unstayed, and is it keel mounted?

 

[tidclacy]

Haha. Maybe, but that is not going to stop me from having fun reorganising the rig to suit my own needs better! What rig is that on your scow? Too small for me to make out if it is a standing lug for a balanced lug. Is the mast stayed or unstayed, and is it keel mounted?

Keel mounted balanced Lug stayed.

Try "The working guide to traditional small boat sails" by David L Nichols for hints and tips

 

[srm]

The boat is a fibreglass mould from a racing shetland boat. Long shallow keel as part of the hull shape, rather than a centreboard, and I suspect the centre of effort being moved a bit will not matter to much.

Thulecraft (Lerwick) took a mould off a Shetland Maid in the 70's and sold a number of hulls in the islands. Later they sold the mould to a firm 'South'. ie somewhere in mainland Britain.

When racing the Maids had a large bermudan sloop rig, however there was a regatta class for traditional or 'ela' (fishing) rigs that had a dipping lug on a mast stepped well forward. Boats often had mast steps so they could compete in both classes, which may explain your two mast steps.

Depends on the age of your boat, when I was living in Shetland (70's and 80's) the racing boats still retained the seaworthy form of their Norse / working ancestors. However, I was back in Shetland about ten years ago and the racing boats had evolved into something that was weird and wonderful, but most definately not seaworthy.

 

[Romeo]

Just as well I like rowing...... no wind at all this weekend, so the sails did not get unfurled for a pic (didn't even bother putting the stays on).

Thanks srm, that makes sense. I had done some searching and thought she might be a "North Sea Skiff", which might be the down sarf manufacturers that you mention. It makes sense that she was maybe designed for two rigs from the start, and I bought her from near Banff...... which is closer the Zetland than it is to down south. I am not sure that I am brave enough for a dipping lug, but if I have a suitable mast some time and can find an old sail of around the right shape...... I might give it a bash just the once.

Thulecraft (Lerwick) took a mould off a Shetland Maid in the 70's and sold a number of hulls in the islands. Later they sold the mould to a firm 'South'. ie somewhere in mainland Britain.

When racing the Maids had a large bermudan sloop rig, however there was a regatta class for traditional or 'ela' (fishing) rigs that had a dipping lug on a mast stepped well forward. Boats often had mast steps so they could compete in both classes, which may explain your two mast steps.

Depends on the age of your boat, when I was living in Shetland (70's and 80's) the racing boats still retained the seaworthy form of their Norse / working ancestors. However, I was back in Shetland about ten years ago and the racing boats had evolved into something that was weird and wonderful, but most definately not seaworthy.

 

[srm]

Nice pic. She probably is from the Thulecraft mould.

I have only sailed with a dipping lug once, on a restored Western Isles fishing boat in Stornoway. An interesting experience and not for the faint hearted. The Shetland boats raced with a crew of three and dipped the lug to tack, but if you have to drop the sail and shift the yard across a crew of four would probably be better, though might be a bit crowded.

Have fun.

 

[Romeo]

Nice pic. She probably is from the Thulecraft mould.

I have only sailed with a dipping lug once, on a restored Western Isles fishing boat in Stornoway. An interesting experience and not for the faint hearted. The Shetland boats raced with a crew of three and dipped the lug to tack, but if you have to drop the sail and shift the yard across a crew of four would probably be better, though might be a bit crowded.

Have fun.

Thanks. I rigged a dipping lug on a St Ayles skiff. Crew of four. One at the mast one at the tiller and two on the oars to make sure she went through the wind! It worked, and I am sure with a bit of practice and adjustment it would have worked better. Went like shit of a shovel in a straight line, the problem was really just turning. I think the main danger with a dipping lug is getting caught aback, losing control and getting blown over. Not averse to giving it a go, but not for the regular rig.

 

[An Rothaich]

Very interested in what has been said so far. I have a 15' fibreglass clinker hulled lug sail dinghy which I found in a derelict state on the river Blackwater. She is now restored and we have to work out how she handles - and how to sail her as my experience so far has been 100% gaffer. The mast is stepped fairly far forward and she has two running backstays/shrouds and a fixed forestay. Has the lines of a Shetland Maid but the stern is not identical to the bow - she has a small wedge shaped transom. Rudder blade extends well below the keel (now adapted to lift) and she has a rowlock in the stern for a steering /sculling oar - in fact one oar has a long leather . No idea of her history (boatyard reckoned she is at least 20 years old judging by the condition of the woodwork) nor of how her rig works in fact I don't think the sail has ever been used. Any thoughts welcomed

 

[RobinBirch]

A thought - perhaps run a similar thread in the Dinghy Cruising Associations Facebook group. Lots of knowledgeable dinghy types on there may help identify your dinghy and advise on rigging etc.

 

[wombat88]

Drascombes have a bit of a rep for being slow, which might account for the arrangement in your photo. Looks good.

The Lugger may be a bit slow but the open Longboat not so, especially if sailed light. Singlehanded it can be sailed like a giant Laser using main only in a fresh breeze. Lots of fun but rowing requires diligence!