New mwmbwe with a few yachting questions

Patrick1964

Patrick1964

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Joined
3 Jun 2009
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Conwy county, North Wales
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Hi all, I live in North East Wales, and am going to start sailing with a view to buying a small yacht either this winter or in the Spring of 2010 - either outright or in a shared ownership. I've never sailed at all, but I have a first lesson booked, and will not attempt to take to the water until I'm competent to do so. My thinking is to buy a boat of somewhere between 19 - 25 feet long, to suit up to 4 people, suitable for day sailing, with a small cabin for the occasional cuppa and some shelter / storage. I want to either berth the boat on the Lleyn Penninsula - somewhere around Porthmadog / Criccieth or buy a trailer sailer and launch the boat from somewhere like Black Rock Sands. I'm looking to use the boat for easy cruises around the local area - if we take to sailing big time we'll sell the caravan and buy a bigger boat in a few years. My questions are

How much money do I need to spend on a boat that doesn't require a lot of work - I don't have much ?

What are the advantages and disadvantages of berthed boats over trailer sailers ?

Assuming I buy something serviceable how much is it going to cost me year on year in upkeep, maintenance and repairs ?

Anything else I need to consider ! ?

I'm aware that there will be lots of variables, but a bit of a steer would be really helpful.

Many thanks

Patrick
 
Brace yourself for lots of advice.

A question - will you enjoy repairing, cleaning and generally fiddling with the boat, and are you a competant handyman? Makes a big difference to runnings costs.

If you are used to the costs of repairing a caravan a boat will be a huge shock. Boats WILL cost more than you think.
 
G'day Patrick and welcome aboard the YBW forums.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of berthed boats over trailer sailers ?

Moored boats cost money to moor if using or not, a trailer sailor needs towing to and from the ramp.
A lot easier to work on a trailer in your yard that travel to mooring and carting all the gear.

Assuming I buy something serviceable how much is it going to cost me year on year in upkeep, maintenance and repairs ?

work on AU3,000.00 a year if moored, less if towed.

Anything else I need to consider ! ?

Get down to your nearest yacht club and join up, they are always looking for crew, this will give you the chance to see life on the water is about as well some free training.

I'm aware that there will be lots of variables, but a bit of a steer would be really helpful. in what direction?

Avagoodweekend......
 
You'll need to make sure it is insured bacause one thing I learnt carting an infalatable boat around with the caravan is how quickly local authorities pounce for registration fees and launching costs even if you launch off of a beach. They won't let you launch without insurance. The last great freedom is no longer free!

As to the rest, you can buy a 20 odd foot sloop for around £1500 upwards, including in some cases the trailer, although they are far heavier than a motor cruiser of the same size and you'll need a 4x4 to haul them around. Consider also you'll have to step mast/rig each time, so perhaps a tabernacle type mast rig and a quick way of setting up?

You'll need an outboard motor and possibly fit a folding bracket to the boat to carry it, around 4-6hp longshaft will just about cope, 10hp better. You may think you're going to sail everywhere, but tide/current/winds may make getting back to trail up impossible without a motor.

Like the man said, moorings cost a bomb, cheapest if you can stand the hassle is taking it home with you, and your cruising ground is wherever you choose to take it. Maintainence is replacement of worn out sails/rope, painting, varnishing, keeping the inside dry, servicing the trailer - salt water does things to trailers and bearings, but maintainence is easy done at home, a pig afloat. Getting craned out for anti-foul is yet more big money if you keep it afloat.

Me, I'm a motorboat man, big heavy diesel cruiser on a mooring which costs me licences, mooring fees, insurance, maintainence whether I use it or not but at least I don't have to tie the bed sheets to a clothes pole to go anywhere so apart from the above I know little about sailing but a lot about trailer boating. We take an 8-man twin o/board inflatable with us in the caravan, c/w a dismantled aluminium trailer which we put together when we set up. It's insured as a tender to the parent craft, and gives us a lot of off-shore fun but paying a local authority to launch off a beach is a rip off in my opinion and we always get stung holidaying in your past of the world.
 
Welcome to the forum

Suggest you start taking one of the mags - PBO is probably most appropriate. Go down the back numbers also and you will find plenty of articles on buying and operating boats in the range you are talking about. Join a Sailing Club if possible to meet others and crew on their boats to gain experience.

As to the basic operating costs and pros and cons. Cost of boat -enormous range from £1500 to £10000. Upkeep depends on condition and upgrades but min £500 a year, but always more than you expect.

Trail or moor. Trail limits you in size and almost certainly needs a 4X4 for anything over 20ft. Allows you to sail different places, but launching sites not always available and can be a lot of hard work to get afloat, mast up etc. On mooring - more expensive but removes the need for the tow vehicle and trailer. Can limit use if tidal.

On balance moored boats are much more common because of the hassle attached to regular trailing.

Hope this helps
 
I would just concentrate on the sailing first, try lake and sea sailing, there is a big difference, especially if you are thinking of selling caravan and have a swmbo to keep happy.

It would be easier to take sailing lessons on a lake, then get some practice as crew, and then venture onto the sea, getting crewing experience first.

Then decide what type of sailing you enjoy and can cope with, if you buy a small yacht you could be stuck with it for years and if you lose interest then it is an asset that you will get no return off, and in the process regretting the purchase.

A couple of rough journeys as crew is no big deal, as someone else is in charge, but as skipper of own boat during initial stages of learning the art of sailing, can very easily put you and/or crew off for life..


Look on ebay or local boatyards to see the amount of deserted boats around.

But after all that you decide its for you, then go for it...
 
Having just gone this very route myself this year I would agree with all of the above with the exception of the assertion that moorings are expensive...

My boat is old - almost as old as me - 19' Fantasie which came with a trailer, one suit of sails (plus a storm jib), no structural or other damage, it also came with an old but usable 4HP outboard, and a full set of old but working electrics (radio and lights and such). Surprisingly (to me) she came in at the very bottom of the price ranges mentioned by the knowledgeable chaps above - *but* she is only 19' and to all intents and purposes is a dinghy with a "shed" on top (but don't ever let her hear I said that!), she can carry my family of four (2+2), but is happier with and can only sleep three, and is even happier with two.... but I sail her solo very happily...

I would never consider trailering her - she's only 19' but weighs a lot - one experience of reversing down a slipway (the day we launched her) was enough for me to know I wouldn't want to do that on a regular basis.... practice might make perfect....

I was already a member of a sailing club - they had moorings - so I put in for one of those and I guess that it costs me £150 odd a year (don't forget to add in another £100 for family membership)... as mentioned above it's tidal so I get 2 hours sailing time each side of the high tide which for me is fine.... but my suggestion would be to consider that route. Not only have I got access to a mooring, but the bar sells real ale at a good price, and I've found a lot of knowledgeable people there who have helped out with questions and advice etc. I wouldn't consider myself a club type of person but have changed my mind in this instance...!

Alternative in my area is to go to the harbour conservancy - their moorings are about £50 to £100 more than the combined cost of club and mooring for my kind of mooring - no choice as far as I was concerned....

Throw in insurance, some money for equipment, and my entire sailing project has so far cost less than £2K... and I'd have paid twice that for the pleasure I've already had from the boat this season alone.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
If you intend to berth or moor in North Wales, check availability first before you buy. It's a bit tight for space with long waiting lists at some places, and the local council are not minded to allow any more.
 
Welcome Patrick
"Anything else I need to consider ! ?"
You will probably also want a small inflatable for getting ashore.
If the boat you buy has a VHF radio, you will need to do a course and get a licence to use it.
There are shed loads of electronics that can be put on a boat of any size these days, when you start shelling out cash for them, consider the power that they will consume, so ensure that the battery is up to the job and that you have the means to recharge it. ie a boat engine that will supply 12 volts. If the boat is trailed, then like the caravan, the battery can be charged from the car.
Trailed boats will need secure storage space.
Recce good launching sites.
Ensure you have the where with all to erect and lower the mast.
A moored boat will need a means of accessing it so we are back to an inflatable . . . £££
 
The suggestion you find somewhere to keep your boat first is a good one, and it will let you see the cost of mooring before you comit to the big purchase. For my first boat my mooring was made up with scrap steel so cost me nothing and I just had to pay my club fees 120 a year. Next one cost a bit more for scrap rail wheels and chain about 250 and add to that the Crown estates yearly fee on top of club membership. My present boat is much bigger and lives in a mid cost marina for more than 2 grand, so the range is extensive. As for the cost of the boat, a lot will depend on how much work you are prepared to do yourself, you aught to be able to get a decent boat that is restoreable over winter for under £2000 depending on quite what you choose. (tip if the boat is on a trailer try and get the seller to deliver that way they cover the risk of their lack of maintainance) As for annual running costs over the mooring well they can vary but for a £2000 boat you will probably do well at under £500 on average. Owning a boat is one of the worlds greatest excuse for spending money.

Good luck
 
Re: New member with a few yachting questions

Thanks for the replies - and sorry for the garbled subject line on my original post (that'll teach me for posting without my glasses on first thing in the morning!)
All your info is pretty much what I expected, will try to get out a biy over the summer and see what happens. As for those who have mentioned the requirement for a towcar for a trailer sailer, we have a 2.2 diesel X-Trail which should cope quite well.
 
[ QUOTE ]


How much money do I need to spend on a boat that doesn't require a lot of work - I don't have much ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Dont start from there. If you go looking for a boat now you wont know what you are looking at. So you wont know how much work it needs. Lots of brokers will be your friend in an effort to sell to you, but they arent really.
If you really insist on buying a boat now, then buy one you can easily reselll - something realtively recent, a standard design, factory built not home made. Look at things like cornish crabbers. read the magazines.

Best thing to do is to join a sailing club, haunt the bar, scrounge as much sailing as you can get, and learn before spending. Sailors are a firendly lot and they will help you learn.

[ QUOTE ]
What are the advantages and disadvantages of berthed boats over trailer sailers ?

[/ QUOTE ] In the size you quote the advantages of a trailor sailer are mooring costs and ability to trail to distant areas. Disadvantages - limits you size and weight wise. Need a towing car.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming I buy something serviceable how much is it going to cost me year on year in upkeep, maintenance and repairs ?

[/ QUOTE ] There really is no answer to this. Its costs me £4 to £5 k pa for a 35 footer on a cheap marina mooring.

[ QUOTE ]
Anything else I need to consider ! ?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes - since you've mentioned money, bear in mind all the extra kit you will need to buy from oilies to radios etc. If you can buy the full set up boat and everything else from a guy who is swallowing the anchor then that has to be good.

get some training - there's no RAC at sea and you cant simply stop and park if you have a problem.

cant emphasise enough that this isnt a project to try and do entirely on your own as a beginner. Join a club.
 
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