New IRC rules on number of headsails.

[flaming]

https://ircrating.org/wp-content/up...ber-of-Headsails-rating-effects-Sept-2023.pdf

Number of headsails about to be a rated item. Not just largest headsail as before.

Say goodbye to the spin staysail…. Isn’t going to be worth the hit to carry one any more.

 

[Birdseye]

Its interesting that taking the sigma 33 as an example, the difference between a roller furler single headsail and 4 hanked on jibs is less than 1% on the handicap. Or am I reading this wrongly?

I would have thought it much greater.

 

[michael_w]

Daisy staysail would give you half a knot when you put it up and half a knot when dowsed!

 

[flaming]

Its interesting that taking the sigma 33 as an example, the difference between a roller furler single headsail and 4 hanked on jibs is less than 1% on the handicap. Or am I reading this wrongly?

I would have thought it much greater.

7 points is about 25 seconds per hour. So not massive.

The issue here to me is again it’s driving a further wedge between inshore and offshore sail selections. Which adds a lot of cost to people trying to do both and this is going to mean further shrinking of inshore fleets.

 

[B27]

It's 0.1% per extra headsail.
A heavy weather jib is allowed 'for free'.

Am I reading it correctly in that it's the number of sails on board, so you can own as many as you like and just choose the appropriate sails race by race?

I think this is a basically good idea, maybe until you get two otherwise identical boats, but one is rated for more sails. Having a #3 will pay sometimes, other times a point off your rating is nice.
But 0.1%?
That's 1m in kilometre maybe two boatlengths in all the beats in a long inshore race?

Do RORC or anyone have a load of race results on a spreadsheet?
How many places would change by having 0.2% for a couple of sails more or less?

And don't forget, it's less luggage downwind.

The other question is whether the 0.1% will be 0.3% next year?

 

[flaming]

It's 0.1% per extra headsail.
A heavy weather jib is allowed 'for free'.

Am I reading it correctly in that it's the number of sails on board, so you can own as many as you like and just choose the appropriate sails race by race?

I think this is a basically good idea, maybe until you get two otherwise identical boats, but one is rated for more sails. Having a #3 will pay sometimes, other times a point off your rating is nice.
But 0.1%?
That's 1m in kilometre maybe two boatlengths in all the beats in a long inshore race?

Do RORC or anyone have a load of race results on a spreadsheet?
How many places would change by having 0.2% for a couple of sails more or less?

And don't forget, it's less luggage downwind.

The other question is whether the 0.1% will be 0.3% next year?

A point is 3.6s per hour. I’ve been involved in plenty of races that were decided by less than that…

 

[B27]

A point is 3.6s per hour. I’ve been involved in plenty of races that were decided by less than that…

Since your rating can only be 'correct' to the nearest point, that suggests some races are a lottery?
It would be a shame if OD races within IRC races were spoiled by people having different headsail points.

 

[flaming]

Since your rating can only be 'correct' to the nearest point, that suggests some races are a lottery?
It would be a shame if OD races within IRC races were spoiled by people having different headsail points.

Not really, it suggests that the racing can be really very close under IRC.

OD races within IRC have long been great as long as you don't look too closely... For example the Sigma 33 have long had an OD rating, but when boats started weighing for rating their ratings started changing by really quite large amounts...
I think when a yacht OD is new and taken seriously it can be great, but after a while the boats will just start to drift a bit, especially if they are cruiser racers, as owners put different amounts of kit on board, and some are in the water all year whilst others are dry sailed. In that way actually rating under IRC (or something else) that at least tries to account for the different weights etc is a good thing.

 

[dunedin]

The issue here to me is again it’s driving a further wedge between inshore and offshore sail selections. Which adds a lot of cost to people trying to do both and this is going to mean further shrinking of inshore fleets.

Just out of interest, why is this going to “adds lot of cost”? Surely the intention of counting the number of headsails is to try to reduce the arms race and discourage having more sails?

 

[flaming]

Just out of interest, why is this going to “adds lot of cost”? Surely the intention of counting the number of headsails is to try to reduce the arms race and discourage having more sails?

It might reduce costs for someone just doing the 1 discipline, but if you need this specialist dual purpose sail to go offshore, but need these more conventional jibs to win inshore, then it's going to add cost for anyone trying to do both. And in any case, by allowing them but rating them, if they work you'll still have to have them.... See code zeros for example...

In reality, most boats doing primarily inshore stuff have basically had the same inventory for ages. J1-4 (the 4 being the ORC heavy weather jib) and a spin staysail. Maybe people will reduce this to 2 jibs and the ORC 4 rather than 3, but other than the initial outlay that won't really cut the cost much, as with each jib getting more use you'll just be replacing more frequently.

It's boats going offshore that have had the explosion in headsails in recent years. With jib tops on furlers, genoa staysails etc and setting 3 headsails at once on the bigger boats.

In my view it's not the conventional "upwind" jibs that are causing all the cost. These days with 3DI or equivalent a jib can be competitive for many seasons. Nor is it really the staysails. Staysails you generally buy once and they last for decades. Our Spin staysail is original with the boat from 2012, it certainly would not get replaced any time soon....
What's causing the cost is the flying jib developments where people are playing with Jib Tops set on a bowsprit, as well as having a regular jib, and then a staysail inside that. Clearly this is a huge benefit to the speed on a reach, but that's not actually being rated here. Nothing is being said about how many headsails you can set at any one time.
I feel that rating the desire to set multiple headsails at once would have had a better effect on limiting cost, or more accurately rating the benefit of flying multiple headsails. And it's worth saying that the benefits of doing that increase as you go up the size range, and get more separation between the sails.

 

[Birdseye]

Nothing is being said about how many headsails you can set at any one time.

Surely the assumption in the change is that those with a rating for say 3 sails will use as many as they can whenever the opportunity arises. Otherwise why carry the extra weight and pay the handicap penalty. In short it isnt being said because it is assumed as in " The ability to increase headsail area by multiple headsails set flying, particularly for larger boats and in a reaching configuration"

The bit that still puzzles me is the small handicap differences involved. I would have though crew performance would make far bigger differences

 

[flaming]

Surely the assumption in the change is that those with a rating for say 3 sails will use as many as they can whenever the opportunity arises. Otherwise why carry the extra weight and pay the handicap penalty. In short it isnt being said because it is assumed as in " The ability to increase headsail area by multiple headsails set flying, particularly for larger boats and in a reaching configuration"

The bit that still puzzles me is the small handicap differences involved. I would have though crew performance would make far bigger differences

But the point is that IRC have highlighted the performance advantages in "having multiple headsails set flying" but isn't actually directly handicapping that directly, but by handicapping number of headsails they are also capturing boats who set only 1 headsail at a time but have several available, as has been the norm for ever...

So do I try and narrow my current selection of 3 upwind jibs smaller than the ORC heavy that we get for "free" down to 2 to save a point on the rating? And if I do, do I "spend" that point in carrying the spin staysail that we have, or leave that at home?

And yes, crew performance does make a bigger difference - I've been telling you that for years!

But points on the rating do matter, and in a way they matter to the perception of whether it's worth going to an event as much as they do to scoring the racing.

 

[B27]

It seems like a small penalty to me, it might be about right for say having 1,2 and 3 genoas instead of just 1 and 3.

The business of flying more than one headsail is a different thing in my view.
It's not new, there were cutters and bowsprits and whatever before we were born.

I think it must be bad enough trying to keep the peace with dinghy racing's PY system,
Trying to please lots of people, many of whom are spending big money on boats, with a rule like IRC, which has grown to be an all-purpose rule covering everything from small boats doing w/l to long distance passage races must be a nightmare.

How do you handicap a race that might be 500 mile fine reach or a 500 mile beat, if some boats are carry a wide range of sails and others the minimum? Do you want the boat which gambles on inventory to beat one which turns up prepared for all outcomes? It makes a difference whether it's a series or a standalone race I think.

 

[Mudisox]

?New sails?

My roller Genoa is from 2002 and still works!

 

[Birdseye]

But points on the rating do matter, and in a way they matter to the perception of whether it's worth going to an event as much as they do to scoring the racing.

Whatever happened to the old " its not the winning that matters so much as the taking part"..?

 

[B27]

Whatever happened to the old " its not the winning that matters so much as the taking part"..?

There are a few dinghy racers who talk about enjoying a PY race on the water and not bothering to look at the 'spreadsheet'.
Personally I prefer OD racing.

 

[mrming]

I’ve been racing IRC since it replaced CHS, back when I was a keen dinghy sailor just getting into keelboats. There’s always been an element of Wacky Races about it imo. I’ve been on the good and bad side of the handicap over the years. It can be frustrating when the boat you sail can get within sniffing distance but can never consistently win. On the other hand I’ve had periods in boats where if you turn up and sail well you will be in with a chance. It all adds to the fun imo, and shouldn’t be taken too seriously, even at the more expensive end. There is always one design (as others have said), and some one design classes actually are vaguely one design.

 

[flaming]

Whatever happened to the old " its not the winning that matters so much as the taking part"..?

That's fine when the racing isn't the main reason to own the boat. It's also fine if you feel that the reason that you didn't win is that you didn't sail well enough.
Where it starts being a problem, and where we start loosing boats from the fleet, is when people feel like they sailed well, went the right way up the beats, had good speed and clean mark roundings, but still correct out behind the boat who were 30s late for the start and dropped the kite in the drink.... And then you add up the bills for the season and start to wonder if this is worth it...

The main issue we seem to have at the moment is that the days of boats sailing offshore and inshore have gone. Very few do both any more.

I can entirely see why a crew who are used to being competitive offshore would not be bothered to turn up to an inshore regatta if they felt they weren't competitive even before the starting gun fired. And here's yet another point of difference between an inshore and an offshore moded boat.....

The only saving grace is the fact you can now hold 2 certificates. The kicker is that IRC charge for that, which is another, mostly phycological, barrier to offshore boats coming to play inshore.

 

[flaming]

It seems like a small penalty to me, it might be about right for say having 1,2 and 3 genoas instead of just 1 and 3.

The business of flying more than one headsail is a different thing in my view.
It's not new, there were cutters and bowsprits and whatever before we were born.

I think it must be bad enough trying to keep the peace with dinghy racing's PY system,
Trying to please lots of people, many of whom are spending big money on boats, with a rule like IRC, which has grown to be an all-purpose rule covering everything from small boats doing w/l to long distance passage races must be a nightmare.

How do you handicap a race that might be 500 mile fine reach or a 500 mile beat, if some boats are carry a wide range of sails and others the minimum? Do you want the boat which gambles on inventory to beat one which turns up prepared for all outcomes? It makes a difference whether it's a series or a standalone race I think.

I think that boat prep, and to an extent "rating prep" is a big part of racing.

Boats have for ever looked at the events that they want to do well in, and the potential (and most likely) conditions and set the boat up for them.

My only real issue here is that it, again, looks like a rule written to answer a specific issue offshore, and especially on big boats, without enough thought being given to how that will play out in smaller boats.

A 1 point hit is a much bigger deal when you have a slower rating than when you have a faster rating. I keep trying to work out in my head what I should do... If I just rated for what we take on the boat when we sail an inshore weekend regatta, I'm rating for 4 jibs. (J1, J2, J3 and spin staysail). But I could save a point by rating for 3... Then pick 3 from 4 based on the forecast.... And looking at our results from this season I can see a couple of races where rating a point less would have improved our position.
And now, this winter I plan on replacing the J1... Should I replace like for like, or should I try and get a sail that would cover both J1 and J2.... Hmmmmm....

To be honest this isn't a complication that I needed, nor do I think it will make any material difference to either the amount of money I have to spend on sails, or the number of boats that come to the start line.

I would have much preferred IRC to rate the number of headsails you wish to fly at once, rather than the number that you carry.

 

[Birdseye]

That's fine when the racing isn't the main reason to own the boat. It's also fine if you feel that the reason that you didn't win is that you didn't sail well enough.

Cant say I have met many of them in the bar after the race! ;-)