New grp spade rudder

D

Daydream believer

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 Oct 2012
Messages
23,576
Location
Southminster, essex
Visit site
Sailing out the Moray Firth this morning on my round uk via Calley Canal & one side of the spade rudder parted company with the other half
Cheeks nipped a bit for a while whilst i got sails down & anchored until the good old RNLI turned up to tow me back into Inverness

I will need a new rudder complete with stock, & quickly, so i can get home to Essex
I know of Jeffra. Does anyone know of any other manufacturers who could make one quickly complete with stock etc?
 
what boat class
when we bought our boat a new rudder was found to be req by the surveyor.
Bridgeland mouldings still had the original moulds. i removed the stock & Fox`s sent it to Bridgeland`s they made new a rudder & bonded in the old stock
 
Last edited:
Daydream believer said:
Sailing out the Moray Firth this morning on my round uk via Calley Canal & one side of the spade rudder parted company with the other half
Cheeks nipped a bit for a while whilst i got sails down & anchored until the good old RNLI turned up to tow me back into Inverness

I will need a new rudder complete with stock, & quickly, so i can get home to Essex
I know of Jeffra. Does anyone know of any other manufacturers who could make one quickly complete with stock etc?
Click to expand...

Have you contacted Ha se? They may have one in stock.

That said I had a new rudder fabricated last year. I took about 4 weeks to build including fabricating a new stock in steel.

How much of the old rudder is left? Can yku have a new rudder blade made around the old stock?
 
sailorman said:
i mentioned original mouldings :encouragement:

I assume you "hit" something :rolleyes:, what have your insurers & Hansa UK said
Click to expand...

Yes autopilot suddenly went haywire veering 20 degrees off course each way ( i reported this on another thread) as i went to disconnect i went aground, ,,quite gently ,, i was not worried at first as i went to motor off. However tide was so strong that it forced me right on to a bank & heeled over 15 degrees. The rudder & keel hit some rocks. Not that hard so even then i was quite relaxed just bemoaning my carelessness. I prodded with the boat hook & it seemed to be sand & shingle. The tide actually dragged me quite a way onto the bank from where i touched. It did jerk the rudder a few times as well as the keel
I floated off 3 hours later i actually hoisted mainsail & sailed off not even bothering to motor. I had reported situation to CG. Do not know why really i suppose i wanted something to do whilst i was sitting with a cup of coffee in my hand.
When i came off i reported i was on my way & no problem. 15 mins later a thump as if i had hit a pot . Looked aft. & saw my rudder floating away. I was able to call cg & did not have to waste time with details as i had already given them. RNLI turned up inside 15 mins& as usual they were brilliant dealing with everything for me
Odd thing was that the chap that came aboard used to live 5 miles from me in essex
As it is sunday i have not been able to speak to Hanse team but have reported to insurers GJW on their hotline. That worked ok so i am hoping it will get sorted efficiently
 
Daydream believer said:
Yes autopilot suddenly went haywire veering 20 degrees off course each way ( i reported this on another thread) as i went to disconnect i went aground, ,,quite gently ,, i was not worried at first as i went to motor off. However tide was so strong that it forced me right on to a bank & heeled over 15 degrees. The rudder & keel hit some rocks. Not that hard so even then i was quite relaxed just bemoaning my carelessness. I prodded with the boat hook & it seemed to be sand & shingle. The tide actually dragged me quite a way onto the bank from where i touched. It did jerk the rudder a few times as well as the keel
I floated off 3 hours later i actually hoisted mainsail & sailed off not even bothering to motor. I had reported situation to CG. Do not know why really i suppose i wanted something to do whilst i was sitting with a cup of coffee in my hand.
When i came off i reported i was on my way & no problem. 15 mins later a thump as if i had hit a pot . Looked aft. & saw my rudder floating away. I was able to call cg & did not have to waste time with details as i had already given them. RNLI turned up inside 15 mins& as usual they were brilliant dealing with everything for me
Odd thing was that the chap that came aboard used to live 5 miles from me in essex
As it is sunday i have not been able to speak to Hanse team but have reported to insurers GJW on their hotline. That worked ok so i am hoping it will get sorted efficiently
Click to expand...

good luck & i hope a speedy resolution
 
Daydream believer said:
So where did you go in the end please?
Click to expand...

Had to have it rebuilt by my local yard. The problem was the relatively common one of pitting on the aluminium stock so the only bits we kept were the GRP sections of the blade itself. Sourcing the aluminium and machining it took quite a while- can't recall exactty but at least six weeks to get the whole thing sorted. At that time I wasn't aware of Jeffa though and I would have given them a call if I had been. It's worth trying Hanse- your boat is newer so something might shake out- and Jeffa may have something which would do in the short to medium term and may not be as expensive as a full rebuild. Best of luck with it,

Cheers
 
Because the rudder stock is aluminium about 60-70mm in diameter, a friend had one & it had a bearing in the bottom with rollers, probably ptfe or similar, the tube above was hypalon like a rubber dinghy.
To machine a new stock is a big job and the right grade of ally is required.
Make one out of stainless steel & it would be rather heavy!
 
Seajet said:
I doubt I'm alone in thinking I'd put up with the weight of stainless; alloy just doesn't seem up to it for either strength or longevity - as events seem to prove...
Click to expand...

mine is s/s, originally with "oilite" bottom bearing. when i re fitted the stock after it had new blade i cut out the original worn bearing & replaced it with plain bronze ( grade ??),
i then added a grease nipple into the rudder tube to augment the grease cup. 16 yrs down the line still as good as new, no wear
 
When I re-built the rudder I was new to boat ownership so simply replaced like for like without thinking about the materials- the problem was holding me up sailing my new boat. I have had no problems since (and have unshipped the rudder to inspect and make sure) so, so far, so good. but a couple of years down the line and with more knowledge I might have at least scoped the idea of stainless. At the time, I thought the issue was a one off, but it seems that pitting near the bearings is a fairly common problem with Hanses of a certain age, almost all of which use aluminium rudder stocks. Whether the newer boats do, I don't know.
 
Reading this thread and others with regard to the problems with the rudder on the AWB if find the designs build in too many problems. The use of aluminium for the rudder stock is IMHO totally the wrong material.

My boat is steel and I have a steel rudder with a stainless steel stock. The rudder is hollow and the whole structure is welded together. This I pressure tested to ensure that no water could leak in and corrode the internal structure. Metal rudder stock with a foam filled GRP structure are bound to leak where the stock and GRP come together at the top and possible the bottom depending on the design.

Oldsaltoz came up with a design that includes an O ring at that interface that will improve the reliability of that interface.

When water leaks into the foam GRP structure it will cause corrosion at the welded joint between the stock and tangs. In a totally sealed steel structure this will not happen. If there is a concern as I have done the hollow structure can be filled with old engine oil that stops any corrosion completely and if a leak does happen due to external damage you will see the oil leaking out to give warning.

Some may say that weight or the rudder will be a problem, in fact the reverse is more likely the the rudder will be too buoyant and would lift out of the rudder bearings. When I did the buoyancy calcs on my rudder that was the case and one of the reasons I filled my rudder with oil at in fact add weight.

I am currently adding a secondary rudder to my monitor self steering gear and did consider using a GRP blade with stainless stock but have decided to use hollow stainless fabrication, but will need to design a way to keep it from floating. I know this as the pendulum blade is a stainless GRP construction and when the lift catch is released it pops to the surface at great speed. On a true monitor this pendulum blade is in fact a totally stainless fabrication.

To the OP IMHO it would be quicker to get a stainless fabrication shop to build a stainless steel replica of your existing rudder than to have an aluminium / GRP rudder as currently. Also the manufacturer only needs one skill not two as in stainless fabrication and GRP construction, he oly needs to know stainless steel fabrication.

Just my six pence worth
 
The existing rudder floated complete with stock. I was always able to push the top of the stock down half an inch & it alwAys came back up
As for stainless steel. I doubt that there are many fabrication shops who could shape the 2 dimensional curves properly. This is totally different to a single dimensioned curve. It would also be difficult to fix the outer skins to the stock
Re welds there are none . The horizontal bars in the stock pass through holes in the stock
Re stainless stocks. There are records of stainless stocks shearing off just as there are ally.
Re machining ally. If i had a lathe with a long enough bed i could turn one up very easily in a morning. Basically there are 2 tapers with the thickest part just under the hull. The stock fixings at the top are no big deal at all. Just one machined groove & 2 holes for locating the aligning studs

There is evidence of electrolysis on the shaft both inside the rudder & in the part that goes in the boat. The worst area being at the junction between rudder & bottom bearing. No idea why that should be
 
Rogershaw said:
Reading this thread and others with regard to the problems with the rudder on the AWB if find the designs build in too many problems. The use of aluminium for the rudder stock is IMHO totally the wrong material.

My boat is steel and I have a steel rudder with a stainless steel stock. The rudder is hollow and the whole structure is welded together. This I pressure tested to ensure that no water could leak in and corrode the internal structure. Metal rudder stock with a foam filled GRP structure are bound to leak where the stock and GRP come together at the top and possible the bottom depending on the design.

Oldsaltoz came up with a design that includes an O ring at that interface that will improve the reliability of that interface.

When water leaks into the foam GRP structure it will cause corrosion at the welded joint between the stock and tangs. In a totally sealed steel structure this will not happen. If there is a concern as I have done the hollow structure can be filled with old engine oil that stops any corrosion completely and if a leak does happen due to external damage you will see the oil leaking out to give warning.

Some may say that weight or the rudder will be a problem, in fact the reverse is more likely the the rudder will be too buoyant and would lift out of the rudder bearings. When I did the buoyancy calcs on my rudder that was the case and one of the reasons I filled my rudder with oil at in fact add weight.

I am currently adding a secondary rudder to my monitor self steering gear and did consider using a GRP blade with stainless stock but have decided to use hollow stainless fabrication, but will need to design a way to keep it from floating. I know this as the pendulum blade is a stainless GRP construction and when the lift catch is released it pops to the surface at great speed. On a true monitor this pendulum blade is in fact a totally stainless fabrication.

To the OP IMHO it would be quicker to get a stainless fabrication shop to build a stainless steel replica of your existing rudder than to have an aluminium / GRP rudder as currently. Also the manufacturer only needs one skill not two as in stainless fabrication and GRP construction, he oly needs to know stainless steel fabrication.

Just my six pence worth
Click to expand...

The op doesn't have a steel boat. I would suggest fitting an all steel fabricated rudder is going to put a lot of weight in the wrong place on his Hanse 311!

The rudder tube is also bonded into the hull and made of aluminium and having such dissimalar materials in close proximity will surely mean note expensive mods.
To the op
I hope you get this sorted and I have a keen interest in your solution. I had only last weekend visited the Jefa site for considering a future replacement .
http://www.jefa.com/rudder.htm.
They seem to offer an off the shelf solution to more than 1 or two mainline boat brands.

When you say you saw half the rudder float away. Was this broken off horizontally or was it delamination off the aluminium stock/frame
 
I fully understand the implications of weight in the ends of any boat, racing or cruising, but I remember when carbon fibre rudders began failing on racing boats; from my aviation experience with this nasty material, then in its' infancy for maritime use, I thought ' could have told you that ' with a cringe.

OK I'm a cruiser at heart, but a fast cruiser who has sailed plenty of performance boats; one thing I would never skimp on, as it's rather useful all the time and can endure even higher loads on racing boats, is the effin' rudder !

So much for German uber-engineering if they use alloy stocks, sheesh !

In the OP's situation, both for getting out of the present predicament & future use, I'd quite fancy the all stainless rudder inc blade idea.

If this sounds like too much weight aft, many people are happy to carry a liferaft on the transom...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top