New girl here - Sunseeker Super Hawk 48 or Camargue 46/55

Divemaster1 said:
:) That sounds about right for Detroits ... know what a spanner is, right end of a screwdriver and are prepared to spend a bit time getting to know the iron lumps... :D
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A good philosophy for any ageing marine installations Alf.

Regarding Detroits thirst for fuel, I haven't really seen any large capacity, high horsepower engines that don't enjoy a drink at working cruise revs.
 
Nick_H said:
Waterbird

snip..... Also, you need to be aware of how much it costs to keep a boat. By the time you've paid insurance, berthing, servicing, polishing, repairs, guardiennage, it can be over 10% of the cost of the boat per year......
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Nick, would this be 10% of the new £ 500k price ie £ 50k pa, or 10% of a 10 yr old price eg 10% of £ 250k ie £ 25k pa, if so, how does an older boat cost less than a younger boat to maintain?

I have always struggled to find out the true cost of trade-ins, depreciation and other significant running costs, and would much appreciate any researched advice
 
BuzzFan said:
Nick, would this be 10% of the new £ 500k price ie £ 50k pa, or 10% of a 10 yr old price eg 10% of £ 250k ie £ 25k pa, if so, how does an older boat cost less than a younger boat to maintain?

I have always struggled to find out the true cost of trade-ins, depreciation and other significant running costs, and would much appreciate any researched advice
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It's only a very generalised rule of thumb of course, but IMO it kind of works on the price you pay, which sounds odd at first, but if you think about it, people who buy brand new boats will probably also get main dealer servicing, berth at the best marinas, pay others to fix, clean, polish, and antifoul the boat, get the best insurance policy etc. People who buy 10 year old boats are more likely to berth at cheaper marinas, do some work themselves, get an independent engineer to do the servicing (or do it themselves) etc. There are loads of exceptions of course, but a lot of people find it fairly indicative of their costs. Personally i've found the 10% rule a bit high, but then i'm tight, so I shop around and do a fair few jobs myself. It isn't supposed to include depreciation of course, which varies much more from boat to boat, and can be 20% by itself on a new boat, or nothing on an older one.
 
Still not in a position but still planning

Hi All,

It has been a while :) I hope every one of you has had a wonderful time on the water this year. July here in Northern France has been very poor as is the beginning to this August. I have been reading all the lovely posts and replies, thank you all for your time.

Engines seem the biggest issue and concern when purchasing plus the Taxes, Country dependent but both the Camargue and SuperHawk are lovely craft, still the ultimate Dream. Luckily both Lou and I know our way round a Boat and are quite handy in the Mechanical department. I myself ran numerous trials on Antifouling paints when studying Marine Biology and Oceanography. I also remember painting my fathers boat for him many moons ago too.

A family friend had a beautiful SuperHawk that we enjoyed some years ago now, in Southern Spain hence a love for the Craft and that particular Boat.

Other than the odd engineer call for Electrical and Major Engine problems most of the upkeep would be carried out by ourselves and friends. There is no way at this time in my life I could afford the ultimate dream, a New Predator or such as the bulk will be in property but a nice 10 year old TomaHawk, SuperHawk or Camargue with low hours will be feasible until the day circumstances change or I win the Lottery :-).

That doesn't mean we will not look at other Manufacturers too, the Don Shead design is so beautiful and Classy. Sunseekers are simply beautiful Boats. The plan to Cruise the Med from Spain, around the South Coast of France, Italy, the Greek islands and possibly Croatia is a life long dream to fulfil.

Have a Great Summer!

Tara & Lou
 
Two girls looking for a 55ft sunseeker?

Did I mention im single.
And young.
And in good shape.
And well err, poor.

Well you cant have bloody everything.
 
In todays climate all too true

BIG.SMOKE said:
Two girls looking for a 55ft sunseeker?

Did I mention im single.
And young.
And in good shape.
And well err, poor.

Well you cant have bloody everything.
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Hi Big Smoke,

Love the reply :-) I am sure you are lovely. It is a life long dream and one that hopefully will eventually become a reality :-). It has been so useful learning about peoples experiences with various Engines and the Boats themselves through this Forum. If ever the dream comes true this information is priceless. It is a tough time Economically unfortunately but here's to trying to keep positive :-) and finding a way through the Storm.

Thank you

T & L
 
BIG.SMOKE said:
Two girls looking for a 55ft sunseeker?

Did I mention im single.
And young.
And in good shape.
And well err, poor.

Well you cant have bloody everything.
Click to expand...
By chance, are you also a road tanker driver?
You know, the T & L signature reminds me of a couple of girls I'd rather not mess with... :D
 
You are all so nice here :-)

It is so nice to see some Humour :-), racing cars sounds fun. I loved it at GoodWood Festival of Speed, a brilliant day out, seeing all the stunning Prestige Cars. There is something really beautiful in design, the Sunseeker hull design by Don Shead to the Beautiful shape of an Aston. When design is executed so beautifully it's timeless as are the Super Hawk, Camargue, TomaHawk etc.

The beautiful Fairey boats timeless and beautiful. I just wish I was wealthy enough to enjoy these luxuries :-).

The replies here inspired another piece of Ambient Music I composed Friday night into Saturday morning called ' Swim of Souls ' http://soundcloud.com/thetribeofthemoon/swim-of-souls

It may go on the Album, we will see but quite a moving piece.

Thanks for reading this thread. I am sure you are a great guy ' Big Smoke ' as are every one else I have had the pleasure of meeting through here.

Best wishes

Tara
 
Very interesting thread, and as a new member I thought I would add my experience.
I sold my UK business and moved to Mallorca in 1995, buying two Sunseeker's and doing a bit of charter for the first few years. The boats were a Martinique 36 and Portofino 400 on shafts. I then moved onto a Tomahawk 41 which I fell in love with and kept for 7 years. The Yamaha engines were sensational and rare.
I also ran one of the Balearics largest boat dealers for 4 years and have sold over 100 boats during this time. So here are a few of my personal observations:
I always had a long and detailed conversation with each and every one of my clients at the outset about EXACTLY how they planned to use the boat. If your choice is a Cam 47 or SH 48 then I believe you have not given this nearly enough thought as they are completely different boats. May I suggest you focus some thought on this issue at the outset.
As far as some of the other advice is concerned, I can again only offer some advice based on my experience.
I have chartered as I said, and delivered many new and used boats all over the Med. I have maybe over 2000 hours, but still have a RYA Day Skipper non-tidal. This has always been fine for everything, (including my insurer). In my experience, you only need to show some sort of license, but I'm sure this is not what the rules say.
I would never go anywhere near a Cam46 or any boat running Detroits for a number of reasons.
If you are looking for a SH 48, only look at mark 2's. You should get a decent late one with triple KAD44's for under 100K these days, but they are difficult and expensive to service. I know of one in Ibiza coming on the market in October that fits. In fact, I may buy is myself!
The SH 50 is a much better option, running twin Yanmars, but they are more expensive. Find one with a hydraulic passerelle fitted. Perfect Med boat.
The Balearics is by far the best cruising area in Spain. Nothing else gets close and I have done most of this side of the Med. However the authorities are complete idiots. Not only do they not know where the goalposts are, they do not know there are any. Completely hopeless.
Day charters are easy in Ibiza, and there is demand, but it is a short season. Mallorca has a longer season but there are more people doing it.
There has been a very recent rule change on Matriculation for boats under 15 meters, so stay under this LOA.
And finally, don't think too much about it, just follow your dream. Bloody amazing here!!! Good luck, :)
 
johnnyinspain said:
.
There has been a very recent rule change on Matriculation for boats under 15 meters, so stay under this LOA.
)
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Good post and welcome to the forum, johnnyinspain. Having recently spent 5 yrs in the Balearics, agree entirely, there's nothing to touch the Balearics as a cruising ground in the W Med and Ibiza is delightful (although not during July/Aug). I left Majorca because of the mat tax issue so I'm interested to know what has changed recently?
 
Thanks Mike.
When I was running the dealership in Mallorca I welcomed many new boaters to the Balearics, so it is a subject close to my heart.
The uncertainty regarding the totally illegal Matriculation Tax that the idiot Spanish try to levy on EEC boats in Spanish waters has been the subject of a recent Spanish declaration on the subject formally excluding all vessels of 15 meters and under. It remains to be seen if they decide to do the sensible thing and remove the tax altogether.
Thinking a little more about specific boats and potential problems I can possibly be a little more helpful when trying to lock down a sensible list of boat options, partially as I am also looking for a new boat for next season.
Both vessels mentioned; the Cam47 and SH48 are getting quite old. It may be sensible to restrict a search to white hulled boats only. Sunseeker have continuing problems with all of their coloured hulls as the boats get older. I am doing exactly this.
There are a very few twin engined SH48's about, ( I have a core dislike of 3 engined vessels). I believe they run Seatec engines. I would personally look seriously at one of these if there was ever a white hulled one for sale. Also the older SH50, (rear facing radar arch) is a stunning boat with twin MAN's on surface drives. A real classic if you can find one. I saw one in Andratx last week but it was way too expensive for what it was.
I would personally prefer a "project boat" if anyone knows of anything. My perfect choice would be to find a white hulled Comanche 40 with no engines. I would love to re-engine one of the fabulous 90's Sunseeker hull's with new Yanmar or Yamaha engines!!!
Interested if anyone knows of anything???? :)

Deleted User said:
Good post and welcome to the forum, johnnyinspain. Having recently spent 5 yrs in the Balearics, agree entirely, there's nothing to touch the Balearics as a cruising ground in the W Med and Ibiza is delightful (although not during July/Aug). I left Majorca because of the mat tax issue so I'm interested to know what has changed recently?
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Wow :-)

Dear Jonny,

It is so nice to see honesty. Welcome to the Forum :-). The advice sounds similar in regards to Engines as already mentioned. Staying away from the Detriot powered craft is certainly something that seems to be a main focus. It is wonderful to hear from people like you who have had direct experience with the Boats in question.

It was such a shame last year we thought all was going to work out here. We had found a lovely 2002 SH in Spain with very low hours, UK registered, Mat Tax paid etc for just under 70k. Then all went to pot this end, our dream dead, the Economy being such to boot has not helped matters.

It is funny you mention the Tomahawk, it is a lovely Boat and one that must have been a lot of fun to own. If my dream were to be granted then the SH would be it. The Balearics sounds an amazing place to Cruise and a place we intend to spend a lot of time around. To Charter the Boat an option too but the legalities need ironing out. We need to get our qualifications up to par too, only Powerboat at present.

As a part time Musician, some of the Music I produce has significant ties with the Balearics and to combine the two somehow would be wonderful. There are quite a few Artist friends who frequent the islands, especially Ibiza; so it would be a lovely place to be.

The Matriculation Tax issue is one that is concerning and it is nice to see something positive materialising in that regard. I know this may seem silly but what are the issues with importing a Boat from the USA?,do any of you know of any one who has done this? There are some very low hour later examples in the USA. Obviously cost of transportation is an issue, tax an issue and registration on top but looking at some of the silly prices this side of the Atlantic is it a viable option I wonder?

The Med is a dream, time spent there in the past a Blast and as you so rightly put it but I will adapt a little: ' Life is for living ' :-)

Thank you again Jonny for your input, valuable and kind, likewise all you other kind Souls.

Tara
 
US boats are mostly not a viable option for the reasons you mention, but primarily as they run I think on 110 volts over there. So, you have to change all of the electrics or run some sort of an inverter. Not really an option unless it happens to be a 220 volt boat.........
 
The actual wiring/ cables on a 110V boat are actually not an issue (unless you are worried about the different insulator colours), as they have to carry a heavier current than on a 220/ 240V boat. Some appliances, TVs etc though would have to be changed, but that doesn't require rewiring.

Graham
 
waterbird said:
Hi Jonny,

That is a valid point regarding the Voltage, what with the other issues on top, probably not viable. Thank you again for your input, I hope you find your Comanche :-)

Tara :)
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Leisure boats in the Eu need to be CE marked. If you bought a UK or Eu built boat from the States, then there is a good chance that it would be CE marked, although the engines might not meet the Eu emissions standards, depending on age. You can get a US boat CE marked after importing, but I would think this easier in the UK than in France/Spain, who take enforcement more seriously than we do here, so landing a US boat there could cause customes difficulties. Cost could be £5000. On resale, a US import can be harder to sell on, as there is a bit of stigma about them. The conversion from 110 to 220V is not difficult, a few hundred £'s for a decent electrician. If the exchange rate wee stil $2/£1 then importing is much more viable.
 
johnnyinspain said:
The uncertainty regarding the totally illegal Matriculation Tax that the idiot Spanish try to levy on EEC boats in Spanish waters has been the subject of a recent Spanish declaration on the subject formally excluding all vessels of 15 meters and under. It remains to be seen if they decide to do the sensible thing and remove the tax altogether.
Click to expand...

Thats interesting. I paid the tax. My boat was under 15m (LWL) so I wonder whether there's a chance of getting the tax refunded? Pigs might fly I suppose
 
Not sure if this helps, I live in Spain and the article below was forwarded to me after a discussion on the subject.....

A Spanish leisure boat authority have issued advice about the
controversial matriculation tax in Spain.

Thousands of British boaters with craft in Spain have been alarmed by
stories of boats being impounded over non-payment of the tax.

There has been confusion over who the tax applies to - particularly
whether the authorities are imposing it on boats which are moored in
Spain for longer than six months.

Traditionally it would apply to not boats but people who remain in Spain
for longer than six months, and therefore become eligible for local taxes.

The FEAPDT Federación Española de Asocaciones de Puertos Deportivos y
Turísticos (Spanish Federation of Touristic and Pleasure Harbour
Associations) say: "The Spanish Tax Authority's activities in recent
months have created alarm among foreign flag-bearing vessels moored in
ports up and down the Spanish shoreline.

"These activities have been directed, depending on each case, at boat
owners or users who must pay the Special Tax on Certain Means of
Transport and/or VAT.

"We believe that such alarm is completely unfounded since, as Spain is
governed by the rule of law, any Tax Authority actions must fall within
the bounds of a corresponding Act of law.

"There is no room for arbitrary activities, only the pursuit by legal
means of fiscal irregularities that people must know about.

"It is clear that those bearing the brunt of the aforementioned
activities are foreigners who do not know the language or Spanish law on
this matter, thus giving rise to confusion."

The association's report attempts to clear up some of the confusion.

This starts out by stating the basics, namely that the Special Tax on
Certain Means of Transport, known as the Registration Tax, amounts to
12% of the price or value of a vessel.

All vessels measuring more than 8 metres that are registered in Spain
are subject to the tax, and they must be registered in order to be used
in Spanish territorial waters by private residents and other established
entities.

The report says the condition for which there is an obligation to
register in Spain, and pay the Special Tax, is when the owner or user is
a private individual and is a resident - when they lived there for more
than 183 days in a year or when they have their main business interest
in Spain.

When a vessel belongs to a company, there is an obligation to register
it in Spain when the company has operating premises there.

If a vessel is located permanently in Spain or for more than 183 days a
year, the report states, this fact alone does not determine an
obligation to register it in Spain.

So crucially a vessel, whose owner is not a resident and does not have
business premises in Spain, can remain in Spanish waters without the
need to pay the Special Tax.

The owner can be required by the Spanish Tax Authorities to demonstrate
they do not reside in Spain by providing a residence certificate of
their home country, or in the case of companies, any means of proof of
business location accepted in law.

On the other hand, in the event that an owner changes their residency
from abroad to Spain, there will be no obligation to pay the Special Tax
if the vessel was acquired under normal fiscal conditions in the country
of origin and there is a request made to register the vessel less than
30 days from when the person acquired the status of resident.

So, summarising:

1) The ownership of or navigation in Spanish waters of a leisure boat by
non-residents does not generate the obligation to pay the Special Tax.

2) The application of the Special Tax does not depend on the period of
time that vessels are in Spanish waters; it does depend on the owner or
user.

3) Residents in Spain are people who live more than 183 days a year on
Spanish territory or have their main centre of business interest in Spain.

4) Proof of non-residency in Spain can be required, and can be
demonstrated by presenting a residency certificate from another country.

5) If vessel owners change their residency to Spain, they can avoid
paying the registration tax by fulfilling a series of requirements.

6) If a company is a vessel owner, it must pay the Special Tax when it
becomes established in Spain or is used by a private resident or
established company.

The association "strongly advise anyone who may be affected by these
points to contact a specialist tax adviser".
 
El Bee thanks for this but it looks to be fairly old advice. In fact what actually happened to me and thousands of other non resident boat owners in Spain was that the tax authorities decreed that any non resident boat owner would be considered resident for Spanish tax purposes if they offered their boat for charter in Spain and also used the boat for personal use on the basis that chartering was effectively a Spanish business operation and the personal use thus made the owner liable for matriculation tax. Yes I consulted a Spanish tax specialist and he gave me (and many others) similar advice to what you have given in your post but the fact was that the tax authorities in some areas, particularly the Balearics didn't accept that position. This was a naked money grabbing operation by the Spanish tax authorities but they ended up shooting themselves in the foot bigtime because many boat owners like me took our boats and our tourist Euros out of Spain and the net result has been that the Spanish boating economy has suffered and the tax take in terms of VAT and income tax from those employed in the boating economy has dropped by a far greater amount than the sum of the matriculation tax taken in. The mat tax grab was a one off but the result is that on going spending in the Spanish boating economy from owners like me has been lost for ever
 
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