New fleet of Clipper RTW boats

Zing said:
Further info for comparison, the VOR 70 is 14 tons designed displacement and the VOR 65 is 12.5 tons.
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And designed to be raced with fewer, but professional crew and only to participate once or twice in a RTW race. The clipper boats are expected to cover considerably more mileage, doing far more laps with a heavier payload and amateur crew. Chalk and cheese.
 
flaming said:
I'm reasonably sure that the primary driver of that layout was the desire to get the main traveler out of the cockpit. Which is an understandable reaction to some of the accidents they have had.

Looking at some of the vids coming out of the current clipper it appears that they have absolutely banned crew from crossing the traveler, at least when not hard on the wind. They have to crawl underneath. So this is definitely a better solution for them.

Otherwise, my opinion is much the same as the last gen. Looks ok, but in reality is far too heavy to be interesting from a spectator point of view. Looks like a decent tool for racing rtw with novices, but wouldn't excite me into signing up for a leg.
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i agree with all of that.

i was just thinking that, given the layout, the winches for the traveler could be in a better spot.

but i guess i would have to see it in person - maybe there is a good spot for a dedicated traveler trimmer to be stationed.

I am still not sure that the coffee grinders for the main sheet are a good idea. It's not entirely clear, and i could be wrong, but it looks like that's how the main is trimmed.
 
Laser310 said:
i agree with all of that.

i was just thinking that, given the layout, the winches for the traveler could be in a better spot.

but i guess i would have to see it in person - maybe there is a good spot for a dedicated traveler trimmer to be stationed.

I am still not sure that the coffee grinders for the main sheet are a good idea. It's not entirely clear, and i could be wrong, but it looks like that's how the main is trimmed.
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I think novices is the deciding factor, while I can understand that a team that regularly race together can make trimming decisions by being in sync with the helmsman, I really don't see that level of implicit coordination on a boat crewed by novices.

It's certainly not evident on the Clipper YouTube channel. This is a pay-per-leg round-the-world sailing experience, not really a race in the real sense, so it's not really a race boat, and it's not a race crew. Maybe that's why they turn up on the ARC once retired?
 
Minerva said:
And designed to be raced with fewer, but professional crew and only to participate once or twice in a RTW race. The clipper boats are expected to cover considerably more mileage, doing far more laps with a heavier payload and amateur crew. Chalk and cheese.
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Sure there are more on board, but that shouldn't increase requirements for displacement much. An extra 6 crew are just 500kg.

The VOR65s are on their 4th plus circumnavigation and more to go That’s similar to Clippers. IMOCA 60 likewise.

Amateurs might find slower easier, but not so in all ways. Plenty do well in Pogos or JPKs and in some ways they are safer and more comfortable. Can outrun weather better and roll less and heel less for example.

Going fast demands a bigger safety factor, not less. Very hard to do in a lighter boat. It does cost a lot more though and that may be the big issue.
 
Zing said:
The VOR65s are on their 4th plus circumnavigation and more to go That’s similar to Clippers. IMOCA 60 likewise.
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Whilst I generally agree with your point, just to correct one thing, the VO65s did 3 laps before being dropped and the IMOCA was used for the last lap. In contrast to the VO70s, the 65s have not gone on to have careers in Ocean racing more generally. There's a few doing "punter" type racing, such as the one in the RORC transat now, but they haven't been snapped up by private owners in the way that the 70s have. Since being retired by the Ocean Race the 70s have gone on to win most of the major Ocean races. In a way it's a shame that the Ocean race had to move away from them for cost reasons, as the platform is clearly way better than the 65s.
 
Zing said:
Sure there are more on board, but that shouldn't increase requirements for displacement much. An extra 6 crew are just 500kg.

The VOR65s are on their 4th plus circumnavigation and more to go That’s similar to Clippers. IMOCA 60 likewise.

Amateurs might find slower easier, but not so in all ways. Plenty do well in Pogos or JPKs and in some ways they are safer and more comfortable. Can outrun weather better and roll less and heel less for example.

Going fast demands a bigger safety factor, not less. Very hard to do in a lighter boat. It does cost a lot more though and that may be the big issue.
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I'm confident that the Clipper Organisation that has been running bi annual races since 1996 know exactly what they require from their yachts.
 
mrming said:
Strange that there’s no one designer or design firm - “leading British naval architects including the world-renowned Nigel Irens” is what’s quoted.
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nice guy - i sailed with him on one of his Gunboat designs a while ago - very interesting to hear his thoughts on the design decisions.

but he hasn't been that active lately in the raceboat scene
 
capnsensible said:
I'm confident that the Clipper Organisation that has been running bi annual races since 1996 know exactly what they require from their yachts.
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I'm sure they think they do. I'm also sure that they thought the same last time but are now imposing strict limits on how the crew move about the deck of those boats because of safety concerns - which has clearly fed into the mainsheet arrangement on the new boat.

In terms of the weight.... I think it's very interesting that the Clipper has stuck to their philosophy in this regard. When I heard that they were going for new boats I did wonder if they would quietly switch to something a bit lighter and faster. But seemingly not. I guess if they're filling their crews with the current performance offering then why change the formula? Does keep it very firmly in the "not a spectator event" category for me though.
 
capnsensible said:
Their experiences of 30 years puts them in the 'know' rating.

Not in the 'think they know' category.....
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Yes, as well as the other members of the Clipper team, Robin K J on his own can provide quite a variety of RTW and boat experience.
A while back he was proud to relate that he held both records for the fastest and slowest round the world trips - in Suhali and ENZA New Zealand. Also been around solo in an IMOCA.
Not many can claim RTW experience in such a range of slow and super fast boats, mono and multi.
 
dunedin said:
Yes, as well as the other members of the Clipper team, Robin K J on his own can provide quite a variety of RTW and boat experience.
A while back he was proud to relate that he held both records for the fastest and slowest round the world trips - in Suhali and ENZA New Zealand. Also been around solo in an IMOCA.
Not many can claim RTW experience in such a range of slow and super fast boats, mono and multi.
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Top post!
 
capnsensible said:
Their experiences of 30 years puts them in the 'know' rating.

Not in the 'think they know' category.....
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Well..... You'd hope. But then of course they "knew" what they wanted when they designed the last boat, that they're now putting crew restrictions in place to prevent injuries in their use case due to its layout.
The "knew" what they were doing when they designed their training program and recruited their skippers before they left a boat on the beach in South Africa. And at least one also grounded before continuing into the southern Ocean. Or grounded 2 boats on a Beach on Brazil. Or on an Island in the Indian Ocean.

I'm sure they've learned lessons in each case, and clearly the new design is a result of lessons learned. But holding them up as the font of all knowledge is a curious response to their history.
 
Edit: deleted wrongly quoted post.

flaming said:
Well..... You'd hope. But then of course they "knew" what they wanted when they designed the last boat, that they're now putting crew restrictions in place to prevent injuries in their use case due to its layout.
The "knew" what they were doing when they designed their training program and recruited their skippers before they left a boat on the beach in South Africa. And at least one also grounded before continuing into the southern Ocean. Or grounded 2 boats on a Beach on Brazil. Or on an Island in the Indian Ocean.

I'm sure they've learned lessons in each case, and clearly the new design is a result of lessons learned. But holding them up as the font of all knowledge is a curious response to their history.
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I don’t think anyone suggesting perfection, just that for their business model, which appears to a successful model, they understand what their market wants. Very likely they know the limitations of their boats and the lifecycle cost, which is why they change them.

If they just sat still rehashing the same design, one wonders how successful the e reprise would be.

Humans are fallible, skippers make mistakes, as do crew.
 
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RunAgroundHard said:
I don’t think anyone suggesting perfection, just that for their business model, which appears to a successful model, they understand what their market wants. Very likely they know the limitations of their boats and the lifecycle cost, which is why they change them.

If they just sat still rehashing the same design, one wonders how successful the e reprise would be.

Humans are fallible, skippers make mistakes, as do crew.
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Well yes, I agree entirely.

I'm just not really keen on holding up this particular organisation as an authority, given their history.
 
flaming said:
Well..... You'd hope. But then of course they "knew" what they wanted when they designed the last boat, that they're now putting crew restrictions in place to prevent injuries in their use case due to its layout.
The "knew" what they were doing when they designed their training program and recruited their skippers before they left a boat on the beach in South Africa. And at least one also grounded before continuing into the southern Ocean. Or grounded 2 boats on a Beach on Brazil. Or on an Island in the Indian Ocean.

I'm sure they've learned lessons in each case, and clearly the new design is a result of lessons learned. But holding them up as the font of all knowledge is a curious response to their history.
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Name anyone who knows better.....
 
capnsensible said:
Name anyone who knows better.....
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At what? Designing training boats, OD race boats, or not hitting Africa?

They have their lane, "adventure" racing with novices and as a business model it clearly works. And I've quite clearly stated that the boat looks like a decent fit for that purpose.

However for anyone holding them up as an example to aspire to within the marine industry, there's some MAIB reports you should read...
 
flaming said:
At what? Designing training boats, OD race boats, or not hitting Africa?

They have their lane, "adventure" racing with novices and as a business model it clearly works. And I've quite clearly stated that the boat looks like a decent fit for that purpose.

However for anyone holding them up as an example to aspire to within the marine industry, there's some MAIB reports you should read...
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Good job I'm not doing that then isn't it.
 
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