New Chartplotter mfd

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

B&G will do everything, and for my money the sailsteer features on their plotters are the best around.

You're not limited to buying just B&G for the bolt on bits, just the core ( Plotter & Radar ), you can then pick and mix the rest as long as it's NMEA 2000 compliant.
I have a Garmin ( Airmar ) Triducer, Garmin heading sensor, Raymarine Multifunction displays ( via stupidly expensive converter lead ), EMtrak AIS etc.

+1 for B&G with its Sailsteer feature. I crewed on the delivery of an ARC-destined boat, from Ireland to Northern Spain, and found the Zeus plotter very good.
On my own boat I have a Raymarine BiData and a Clipper Wind, a now-obsolete Raymarine A65 (Classic) and a Cobra DSC VHF, none of them networked. I intend to replace the A65 with a B&G Vulcan 7 and add Class B AIS (AIT2000) which will send 0183 to the VHF and accept 0183 from the Clipper Wind. It will send AIS returns into the backbone on N2K.
I will have to use an E22158 ST1 to STng Adaptor plus a A06045 STng to N2K Cable to plumb the ST1 speed and depth signal from the BiData into the backbone.
I don't intend to add radar for the forseeable, but if I do, it will have to be B&G , at least it will be plug and play.

 

[lustyd]

I have a B&G Vulcan MFD connected via a Raymarine ST/STNg converter to Raymarine ST60 series instruments and Raymarine ST4000 wheelpilot. The instrument data gets through to the Vulcan MFD but it does not control the autopilot, not that I cared about that in any case.

I have this exact setup and it works exactly as Paul said. I can set a waypoint on the Vulcan and steer to it (or change waypoint and the pilot steers to the new one). I've never tried steering manually from the MFD but they're next to one another so I use the P/S buttons on the pilot if I want to do it manually. I can't see that changing when I upgrade to the B&G pilot though, the dedicated buttons will still be easier and nicer to use while at the helm. From my perspective this setup works better than expected and I'd recommend as a starting point for upgrade.
I will say though, the ST60 instruments have a bundle of wires, so my ST STNG is at the helm. I plan to upgrade the instruments before radar just to make it easier to get the NMEA2k cable to the helm by reducing cabling. At that point I think I'll only need the NMEA2k cable to the helm but maybe also power for the wireless command mic.

 

[[163233]]

Raymarine are muddled with their connectors, as you say, N2K on some new plotters, but still using STNG on other products. Go spend £5K on a new MFD and AP and you need a converter cable.

Yes, it's a bit much, I got a raymarine ais because I figured it'd work better in an all raymarine system, but I'm looking at nearly a hundred quid to connect it via stng so it's bumbling along with a few dodgy nmea connections (the radio just listens in).

Also got a TT wind, that I know raymarine just bought to kill them, but that's obviously not going to interface to the other raymarine gear either without a 300 quid nubbin.

I just won't get caught in that trap if I can avoid it.

I recently bought an ONWA Chartplotter/AIS ; it works but, moisture gets inside and then it is hard to see the screen, also the screen definition/clarity is not very good. Overall, the quality is very disappointing.

Thanks, it's good to know actual experience.
My Raymarine gear is all good but poorly interconnected. Despite being the same brand.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Currently, I have raymarine evo AP, E80 classic, 2kw 18"radar, st40 depth, st40 speed, em trak ais transponder, nasa wireless wind, a stand alone simrad ce and seperate depth transducer at the chart table.
My plan is 12" axiom, quantum radar, new thru hull transducer, nmea 0183 to seatalk to connect ais and wind. I intend to keep the very old internal system because it works (belt and braces).

If you have an Emtrak AIS it has an N2K connection, the Axiom has an N2K connection, your St40s (including wind) will all connect to a ST-STNG adapter kit and the adapter kit will work with N2K with a simple STNG-N2K cable.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Easy to buy one of each cable, cut them, solder and heat shrink and you have two adapters, we have mixture of device net and stng and no issues

It is true that you can cut and splice the cables, but................. you purchased two cables, cut them and did two lots of splicing and ended up with.................. two cables

Not only that, but devicenet (N2K) cables are male and female, so you ended up with a slightly oddball cable.

 

[prv]

the N2 standard has to be followed, so they must speak the same language, but the standard does not cover the connectors,

It does cover the connectors. It specifies either DeviceNet or a particular configuration of ring terminals and barrier strips which I’ve never seen used in practice.

Pete

 

[PaulRainbow]

It does cover the connectors. It specifies either DeviceNet or a particular configuration of ring terminals and barrier strips which I’ve never seen used in practice.

Pete

NMEA 2000 requires that cables and connectors conform to a set of standards, it does not specify that only DevicNet connectors are used. If it did, many Raymarine, Simrad, Furuno etc equipment would not comply and would not be certified. DeviceNet is but one of many connectors that could be used.

Perhaps my statement was poorly worded (although i think everyone knew what i meant), how about "the N2 standard has to be followed, so they must speak the same language, but the standard does not cover the connectors specify the exclusive use of DeviceNet connectors."

Your opening statement " It specifies either DeviceNet or a particular configuration of ring terminals and barrier strips" is incorrect.

 

[laika]

Yes, it's a bit much, I got a raymarine ais because I figured it'd work better in an all raymarine system, but I'm looking at nearly a hundred quid to connect it via stng so it's bumbling along with a few dodgy nmea connections (the radio just listens in).

Why so expensive? I have one of the earlier raymarine AIS units (AIS500) which I used to have connected to my plotter with NMEA-0183 but when I installed the evo autopilot I just removed the NMEA-0183 and plugged the stng interface into my new stng backbone using the drop cable I think came with the AIS. Works a treat. Yes I had a spare socket on my st1-stng converter but a t-piece or 5-way wouldn't be anyway near £100 and would be the same problem with any n2k wiring system. I'm honestly not trying to say what your assessment isn't correct, I'm just trying to understand it better

Edit: I note that the AIS-250, the first (as I recall) raymarine receive-only unit had no st-ng interface, just nmea-0183. Is that what you have?

 

[[163233]]

Why so expensive? I have one of the earlier raymarine AIS units (AIS500) which I used to have connected to my plotter with NMEA-0183 but when I installed the evo autopilot I just removed the NMEA-0183 and plugged the stng interface into my new stng backbone using the drop cable I think came with the AIS. Works a treat. Yes I had a spare socket on my st1-stng converter but a t-piece or 5-way wouldn't be anyway near £100 and would be the same problem with any n2k wiring system. I'm honestly not trying to say what your assessment isn't correct, I'm just trying to understand it better

Edit: I note that the AIS-250, the first (as I recall) raymarine receive-only unit had no st-ng interface, just nmea-0183. Is that what you have?

Actually looking on force 4 it'd be 60 quid which is still a lot for a few metres of cable and a T piece.

It's wired through nmea now which works adequately, but I'm sharing some connections which one isn't supposed to do with nmea.

It's a 650.

 

[laika]

Actually looking on force 4 it'd be 60 quid which is still a lot for a few metres of cable and a T piece.

Is this to some extent an unfortunate consequence of your backbone topology? Raymarine include a 1m cable with the AIS product (and most of their st-ng products from what I can tell). I'm guessing many people have the electronics clustered together near the chart table so for a lot of people with spare sockets on a 5-way block or the stng drop cable sockets on the st1-st-ng converter it's plug and play.

True that the st-ng cables seem ridiculously expensive. Oddly the st-ng 5-way blocks seem reasonable compared with, say, the actisense multiway t pieces but otoh the stng stuff looks considerably less robust.

 

[[163233]]

Is this to some extent an unfortunate consequence of your backbone topology?

Yes, in short it needs a fairly long backbone extension. Even if it didn't it'd need something for an extra T as the backbone is currently just one of the plastic plug block things.

I did have a plan to cut the spur that came with the ais and combine it with the backbone power cable - which uses a slot of course - extending it as necessary but it'd look a bit of a bodge.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Actually looking on force 4 it'd be 60 quid which is still a lot for a few metres of cable and a T piece.

It's wired through nmea now which works adequately, but I'm sharing some connections which one isn't supposed to do with nmea.

It's a 650.

If you mean NMEA 0183, it's OK to connect more than one device to an out port, but in ports can only have one device connected.

 

[[163233]]

If you mean NMEA 0183, it's OK to connect more than one device to an out port, but in ports can only have one device connected.

Yes, I've got the radio listening in for it's GPS via a splice.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Yes, I've got the radio listening in for it's GPS via a splice.

That is perfectly acceptable

 

[[163233]]

That is perfectly acceptable

Ugly, and not really appropriate for RS422 links, but yes, it works.

I'd prefer the STNG cabling but the money is stupid. Which is really all I was saying.

 

[prv]

Your opening statement " It specifies either DeviceNet or a particular configuration of ring terminals and barrier strips" is incorrect.

Which version of the standard are you looking at?

The one I was referring to from memory was version 1.210, in which section 2.7.3 says that:

"one of two methods of connecting to the backbone cable shall be used. The two methods are allowed for all types of connections and may be used together on the same network:

• Standardised 5-pin connectors
  • DeviceNet "Mini" style connector
  • DeviceNet "Micro" style connector

<Drawing of a backbone with connectors>​

• Barrier strips

<Drawing of a backbone made out of individual wires and terminals>"​

​

The rest of section 2.7.3 continues with further details about these connection options, including a statement that "Connectors shall be the 5-pin "Mini-C" or "Micro-C" style connectors compatible with industrial bus systems (eg DeviceNet, Profibus, and SDS)."

To be honest, section 2.7.3 of this version of the standard is not terribly well drafted, and when I went to check my current copy I found that the whole lot had been taken out and reorganised into a new "Appendix I - Cable and Connector Specification". But this takes a lot more words to say much the same thing (including a lot of environmental requirements and testing procedures aimed at companies looking to manufacture them) so it's not as convenient to quote.

Given that the latest version of the NMEA2000 standard has an entire 62-page document dedicated to cable and connector specifications, I think it's safe to say that the standard doesn't leave choice of plugs up to the whims of equipment makers or installers.

Pete

 

[PaulRainbow]

Which version of the standard are you looking at?

The one I was referring to from memory was version 1.210, in which section 2.7.3 says that:

"one of two methods of connecting to the backbone cable shall be used. The two methods are allowed for all types of connections and may be used together on the same network:

• Standardised 5-pin connectors
  • DeviceNet "Mini" style connector
  • DeviceNet "Micro" style connector

<Drawing of a backbone with connectors>​

• Barrier strips

<Drawing of a backbone made out of individual wires and terminals>"​

​

The rest of section 2.7.3 continues with further details about these connection options, including a statement that "Connectors shall be the 5-pin "Mini-C" or "Micro-C" style connectors compatible with industrial bus systems (eg DeviceNet, Profibus, and SDS)."

To be honest, section 2.7.3 of this version of the standard is not terribly well drafted, and when I went to check my current copy I found that the whole lot had been taken out and reorganised into a new "Appendix I - Cable and Connector Specification". But this takes a lot more words to say much the same thing (including a lot of environmental requirements and testing procedures aimed at companies looking to manufacture them) so it's not as convenient to quote.

Given that the latest version of the NMEA2000 standard has an entire 62-page document dedicated to cable and connector specifications, I think it's safe to say that the standard doesn't leave choice of plugs up to the whims of equipment makers or installers.

Pete

So, you are saying that Raymarine STNG, Navicos Simnet etc are non-complaint and cannot be certified ?

 

[prv]

So, you are saying that Raymarine STNG, Navicos Simnet etc are non-complaint and cannot be certified ?

Presumably. That or they pressured the NMEA to certify them anyway; having dealt with the NMEA itself I get the impression it’s not a very large organisation, with most of the actual work being done by manufacturer employees. But certainly early Raymarine STNG materials went to some length to point out that it wasn’t N2k certified, and I’m not sure that they now claim that it is, only that it will interoperate.

This is speculation; what is or isn’t covered by the standard is fact, because I’m sitting here with copies of two different versions of it in front of me. And no, I can’t share them.

Pete

 

[PaulRainbow]

Presumably. That or they pressured the NMEA to certify them anyway; having dealt with the NMEA itself I get the impression it’s not a very large organisation, with most of the actual work being done by manufacturer employees. But certainly early Raymarine STNG materials went to some length to point out that it wasn’t N2k certified, and I’m not sure that they now claim that it is, only that it will interoperate.

This is speculation; what is or isn’t covered by the standard is fact, because I’m sitting here with copies of two different versions of it in front of me. And no, I can’t share them.

Pete

Earlier editions of the N2K standards were vague and referee to ODVA standards. To be honest, i don't keep up to date with the small print of N2K standards, i don't manufacture anything so most of it is irelevant to my work, providing i adhere to installation requirements.

Interestingly, Raymarine state "The current marine industry standard. All current Raymarine MFDs are NMEA2000 certified. "

Highlighting is mine. Perhaps this explains why the newer MFDs have changed over to DeviceNet connectors.

 

[Daverw]

It is true that you can cut and splice the cables, but................. you purchased two cables, cut them and did two lots of splicing and ended up with.................. two cables

Not only that, but devicenet (N2K) cables are male and female, so you ended up with a slightly oddball cable.

Only paid £1 for the STNG cable and the other standard industrial can bus link cable for £5, ?