New boating product investment opportunity

[prv]

Electrical systems

Ignore electric autopilots, they're not your competition. They fill a different niche and most boats that want a mechanical system would want an electrical one too.

Windvane units clutter up the stern of the boat making it difficult to fit boarding ladders, aerials, radar, as well as dinghy davits. They are also vulnerable to damage, particularly when manoeuvring in harbour. Also, if some weed gets caught on the rudder the steering goes awry, and to clear it you may find yourself hanging over the stern poking it with a boathook - not much fun in blow.

Well, yours clutters up the cockpit.

Ties sail handling to steering (obviously the two will always affect each other, but this scheme makes them one system).

Looks ugly.

And is an unknown quantity with no history of reliability.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Agree with Pete and kellys eye. What you say about the drawbacks of current windvanes is true - but it is not enough to deter people from buying them. That is a very small and specialised market - hence the cottage industry nature. It is also probably a declining market as boats get bigger and more powerful, and electronic pilots better.

So, you are back to the basic question - does your product do things that will attract people that find the current solutions unsatisfactory?

 

[KellysEye]

>Windvane units clutter up the stern of the boat making it difficult to fit boarding ladders,

Hydrovanes can be offset making fitting a boarding ladder easy.

> aerials, radar,

Usually go on the mast.

>as well as dinghy davits.

Smaller boats don't use davits

> They are also vulnerable to damage, particularly when manoeuvring in harbour.

Only if you are stupid and go in fast.

>Also, if some weed gets caught on the rudder the steering goes awry, and to clear it you may find yourself hanging over the stern poking it with a boathook - not much fun in blow.

Grasping at straws, I've never known it happen.

>Electrical systems - do not follow the wind very well, they have a large number of delicate components, any one of which can cause the unit to fail unexpectedly.

>Total nonsense modern autopilots work well and are reliable, they don't have delicate components, it's called a circuit board. Grasping at straws again.

 

[PhillM]

Hi Phil. I appreciate the unit on view is too big for your boat. I have a design for 24ft to 27 ft boats which is smaller and has better styling. I can also be used with simple jamb cleats.

Does this help?

Rob

Hi Rob, ok so how much to buy one for my boat? 24'5 LOA, 19@ LWL, 3 ton displacement and long keel with keel hung rudder.

I have 1960's GIBB winches that are bolted to a mild steel supports.

You can see the boat here:
http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/craft-reviews/used-test-cheverton-caravel

Any questions ask.

BTW I am thinking of looking at self steering in the future. So far my options are a wind vane (new £1500 or 2nd hand about £750) or a Tiller Pilot (around £500).

How does your system compare in price / availability / install costs and service?

 

[lw395]

Deja vu:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341367

This looks like a more elegant / cheaper / lighter / less invasive solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQNBlrg0VyI

That looks interesting.
I can see some merit in simple steering by the sheets.
I always hated the noise my Navico Wheelpilot made, but it was very useful as a wheel lock.

Unlike some people (it seems!) I actually enjoy steering a boat.

 

[skyflyer]

 

[Tranona]

Hi Rob, ok so how much to buy one for my boat? 24'5 LOA, 19@ LWL, 3 ton displacement and long keel with keel hung rudder.

I have 1960's GIBB winches that are bolted to a mild steel supports.

You can see the boat here:
http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/craft-reviews/used-test-cheverton-caravel

Any questions ask.

BTW I am thinking of looking at self steering in the future. So far my options are a wind vane (new £1500 or 2nd hand about £750) or a Tiller Pilot (around £500).

How does your system compare in price / availability / install costs and service?

Just in case you don't get a direct answer - from the website the kit is £2250 plus you will need to buy 2 self tailing winches - Lewmar 16s or similar which are getting on for £400 each new - so over £3k for something that does not seem to do the job as well as the most basic windvane or tiller pilot.

For everyday cruising - coastal/cross channel stuff you can't beat an ST1000 for your size boat - for less than the cost of one new winch! When you start doing long passages windvanes come into the picture, but many people cope quite well with an electronic pilot.

You can see why there is some scepticism about the product finding a place in the market.

 

[nimbusgb]

Price - I got a quote for over 2k for my boat. Considerably less would buy me a wind vane steering system ( And no amount of 'helpful explanation' is going to convince me that this is better than a windvane ) or more solar panels and/or a wind generator to supplement the power supply for my autopilot.

What is a little sad is that this product has been around for more than a year and yotties ( product is useless to power boaters! ) are not exactly beating a path to the inventors door, in spite of getting an award for 'product of the year' ( they must have been short of candidates imho ) and the inventor is convinced that he's got a world beater.

Panta I suggest you get on a plane to one of the industrial Chinese cities, find a manufacturer that will punch them out allowing a retail price of around £300 and you might, just might recover the cost of the venture.

I'm out!

 

[PhillM]

Just in case you don't get a direct answer - from the website the kit is £2250 plus you will need to buy 2 self tailing winches - Lewmar 16s or similar which are getting on for £400 each new - so over £3k for something that does not seem to do the job as well as the most basic windvane or tiller pilot.

For everyday cruising - coastal/cross channel stuff you can't beat an ST1000 for your size boat - for less than the cost of one new winch! When you start doing long passages windvanes come into the picture, but many people cope quite well with an electronic pilot.

You can see why there is some scepticism about the product finding a place in the market.

Thank you

I guess that was my point in asking. If the product were, say £250 and worked without having to change my winches and without lines across the cockpit (there must be a way to rig it so that lines run down the outside then manage the tiller behind the cockpit) then I am sure it would have a great market. But at £2K+ new parts, plus being very obtrusive, I just don't see it working.

 

[Iain C]

I work in sales. You urgently need someone from a sales background to work on your website and "pitch". Going back to Dragon's Den, it's the pitch that always lets people down.

Your website is confusing. You don't clearly state the problem that your product is looking to overcome. There's no social proof or credibility ("The Steersman was fitted to 3 boats in the last Jester Challenge and successfully steered over 15000 trouble free miles etc etc...) and your wording on your Seedrs page is weak "we believe it's quicker reacting..." rather than "thousands of miles of testing has shown that the steersman will steer a course 11% more accurately than a windvane, whilst being over £800 cheaper than an entry level vane for a 32 foot yacht. In addition, it will steer happily in winds of F7 and above, which would have electric systems unable to steer safely and drawing a current of xyz...unsustainable on a longer voyage etc etc etc"

And your video is, I'm afraid, truly, abysmally awful. Grainy, shaky shots of a mast and guardrail, on a very benign sailing day, with occasional panning to what would appear to be a motionless Steersman, and a bloke sat about a foot away from it. The cynic in me thinks that to be honest my boat, if correctly trimmed, would probably steer herself on a day like that, and that your bloke has tweaked the elastic and gone "quick...get the shot...get the shot!" before the boat wanders off course.

You need a shot from the companionway, in a solid F6, with big seas and an empty cockpit, and some captions giving your position along the lines of "4 hours later, glued to the radar crossing the shipping lanes, wind F6, Steersman on course having not been touched for 7 hours now"

As a buyer or investor I need something that IMPRESSES me, I'm afraid from the website, even if the product is brilliant, it does not impress me one iota.

And I'm not being harsh here...think of the reaction that the first inventors of an inflatable dinghy, a normal windvane, or lifting keels would have got...

 

[35mm]

It seems the OP is coming in for some disappointing feedback here, and I don't think I'll be able to give any encouragement either. I think there have been a lot of level headed and realistic comments posted here, even if some seem a little harsh, and I think the OP needs to pay attention to them and come around to thinking about what he has from a different angle.

From a marketing point of view the web site is a class A fail. You either made it your self with some low cost, point and click software or got a school kid to do it for a bit of pocket money. Apart from the fact that it looks bad, it doesn't mean business, and does nothing to sell the product.

Now the product it's self... My first thoughts are that sheet steering is an age old concept and that the product it's self looks like nothing more than just a proof of concept prototype. Even a little "Heath Robinson" in it's style - a bit of a bodge. It is not yet good enough to go to market! It needs refining, compacting, simplifying and cost reducing. Without doing that, it is not an improvement on any existing product and therefore has no way into the market.

Finely, the market scope for this product is way smaller than your projected turnover suggests. Then you have to compete in that market against well known and trusted systems that do a similar job. The fact that the customer has to buy two Steersman, doubles the price, making it less cost efficient than a single device.

While your device has some advantages going for it, it needs more refinement before it can succeed in the market place. Before it can be a successful market product, it needs to fulfil the following criteria; a) be a tangible improvement on any other system currently available. b) be less complicated than any other system. c) be more cost effective than any other system currently available.

A serious issue here is that by looking at your product, understanding the concept, and thinking about it for a very short time, I can already see ways of improving on it, making it less complicated to set up and use, and substantially reduce the cost to a point where it could be a market success. That means I am now a potential competitor who could quite literally blow your product out of the water, take the wind out of your sails and sink your business! Why? Because you haven't yet fully refined the product to a level where it meets the criteria to be competitive enough to succeed in the market place.

 

[Neil_Y]

Hi Pete. OK

Windvane units clutter up the stern of the boat making it difficult to fit boarding ladders, aerials, radar, as well as dinghy davits. They are also vulnerable to damage, particularly when manoeuvring in harbour. Also, if some weed gets caught on the rudder the steering goes awry, and to clear it you may find yourself hanging over the stern poking it with a boathook - not much fun in blow.

Electrical systems - do not follow the wind very well, they have a large number of delicate components, any one of which can cause the unit to fail unexpectedly. They also rely on battery power, and the stronger the wind the more battery power they need. On a small boat this could be serious. The battery should be kept for navigation lights and the radio. They also many of them don't work well in winds above a F6.

I consider self steering gear as an important addition to yacht safety, and for me, The Steersman fits the bill better than any of above.

I hope this helps

Rob

Having also started business' with new products and new technologies, currently hard composite bearings to replace rubber and the quicKutter rope cutter. Now that both are tried and tested on commercial and military vessels I can easily get investment.

I think you may be in that awkward position of seeing the product from an inventors viewpoint, not a customers. The reality check is when you look for investment.

I've sailed many thousands of miles and I have used elastic sheet tension steering systems, diy, but it worked quite well. Now I prefer electric, and possibly wind vane as a back up.

The electric systems like the ST6000 do work well in all conditions, it's easy and takes up little space to take spare parts. I have always used a towed generator so I've always had surplus power. The ST6000 also worked well on wind angle. That was a 20 year old system so I can only think they've got better.

In my business you would think the sale of a new rope cutter would be easy as it's simpler and better and used by the likes of the RNLI, but alas the mentality in the marine world is very slow when it comes to change. Your unit although a nice idea that works also has its draw backs. Clutter on side deck, cumbersome mechanics, does it work with wheels? easily broken, if you fell on the control arms? needs tweeking?

It doesn't leap out at me as something I'd consider for my next passage yacht. First choice electric, second windpilot or Aries.

But good luck it's good to see new ideas but this might not be the one that makes you rich.

 

[Tintin]

Non starter, except perhaps as a small additional income.

 

[panthablue]

Hi Rob, ok so how much to buy one for my boat? 24'5 LOA, 19@ LWL, 3 ton displacement and long keel with keel hung rudder.

I have 1960's GIBB winches that are bolted to a mild steel supports.

You can see the boat here:
http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/craft-reviews/used-test-cheverton-caravel

Any questions ask.

BTW I am thinking of looking at self steering in the future. So far my options are a wind vane (new £1500 or 2nd hand about £750) or a Tiller Pilot (around £500).

How does your system compare in price / availability / install costs and service?

Hi Phil

What a beautiful boat.

From the pictures it looks to me as if you have no winches. In which case the Mini version would suit. We are not manufacturing this yet, but it will be on sale for about £600. That includes the two platforms and the spring assembly.

Rob

 

[panthablue]

I work in sales. You urgently need someone from a sales background to work on your website and "pitch". Going back to Dragon's Den, it's the pitch that always lets people down.

Your website is confusing. You don't clearly state the problem that your product is looking to overcome. There's no social proof or credibility ("The Steersman was fitted to 3 boats in the last Jester Challenge and successfully steered over 15000 trouble free miles etc etc...) and your wording on your Seedrs page is weak "we believe it's quicker reacting..." rather than "thousands of miles of testing has shown that the steersman will steer a course 11% more accurately than a windvane, whilst being over £800 cheaper than an entry level vane for a 32 foot yacht. In addition, it will steer happily in winds of F7 and above, which would have electric systems unable to steer safely and drawing a current of xyz...unsustainable on a longer voyage etc etc etc"

And your video is, I'm afraid, truly, abysmally awful. Grainy, shaky shots of a mast and guardrail, on a very benign sailing day, with occasional panning to what would appear to be a motionless Steersman, and a bloke sat about a foot away from it. The cynic in me thinks that to be honest my boat, if correctly trimmed, would probably steer herself on a day like that, and that your bloke has tweaked the elastic and gone "quick...get the shot...get the shot!" before the boat wanders off course.

You need a shot from the companionway, in a solid F6, with big seas and an empty cockpit, and some captions giving your position along the lines of "4 hours later, glued to the radar crossing the shipping lanes, wind F6, Steersman on course having not been touched for 7 hours now"

As a buyer or investor I need something that IMPRESSES me, I'm afraid from the website, even if the product is brilliant, it does not impress me one iota.

And I'm not being harsh here...think of the reaction that the first inventors of an inflatable dinghy, a normal windvane, or lifting keels would have got...

Hi Iain

This is why I need the investment. I've been struggling with a shoestring budget on this project for the last few. Its a great product, but I come from an engineering background and I know my marketing skills are limited. The investment would pay for a more professional approach. Here's the link if want to consider http://seedrs.com/startups/the-steersman?promo_code=VJLMW84Q

 

[prv]

I have 1960's GIBB winches that are bolted to a mild steel supports.

You can see the boat here:
http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/craft-reviews/used-test-cheverton-caravel

What a beautiful boat.

From the pictures it looks to me as if you have no winches.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Hi Iain

This is why I need the investment. I've been struggling with a shoestring budget on this project for the last few. Its a great product, but I come from an engineering background and I know my marketing skills are limited. The investment would pay for a more professional approach. Here's the link if want to consider http://seedrs.com/startups/the-steersman?promo_code=VJLMW84Q

Perhaps the feedback you are getting from people here is just the sort that you need - and it is suggesting there is not a potential market for your product. It is too complex, too expensive, and does not seem solve the problem as well as the existing products on the market.

 

[lw395]

The youtube video on the home page comes to an end, then youtube presents me with a choice of videos, including two which show tiller/sheet steering achieved much more simply, economically and without cluttering up the sidedecks.

I can see some merit in tiller-sheet steering. But I would not want all that hardware, which seems to be an excessive solution to a relatively simple problem.
Also on many yachts, I do not feel that raising the winches, increasing the stresses on the deck moulding would be acceptable. Neither would using the stanchions as block anchor points.

I suspect the kind of person inclined to tweak a steering system on a downwind leg in benign conditions might be tempted to set a spinnaker instead?
When the conditions are less benign, how would the system cope? It seems to me that the forces in a genoa sheet vary a lot as you broad reach down a wave. It would take a lot to convince me it is going to be useful downwind. Particularly in a fin keel yacht.
So it might pay to focus on upwind and reaching use.
You need case studies of how well it has worked on various boats on various voyages.

It might be worthwhile identifying your target market and why they are unsatisfied by current options. I had a wheelpilot, I thought it was doing a lot of unnecessary work and making a lot of noise. But then it was only £300-odd.
I simply used it less and less as time went on.
Most people I know seem to either have a Raymarine/Autohelm system under the deck, or a tiller pilot of some sort on a smaller boat. A few ocean-going friends have vane gear. I have been in the position of having to steer manually for long periods due to broken vane gear on a delivery job. Had that been my boat, I would have wanted a back-up system, but that would probably be an autohelm and some solar panels. I don't think there was any cash around or the vane would have been fixed. In the end, you learn to steer a pretty good course with your feet while eating dinner!





What exactly does the patent cover?

 

[prv]

What exactly does the patent cover?

1. A steering arrangement for a sailing vessel which comprises a sail, a winch, a control line connecting the sail to the winch and a helm for steering the vessel, the steering arrangement comprising: a winch mount for mounting the winch to the vessel in a manner which permits movement of the winch relative to the vessel in response to wind force on the sail and the control line, and force transmitting means for translating movement of the winch mount into movement of the helm of the vessel.

2. A steering arrangement according to claim 1 wherein the arrangement is such that, in use, the helm is steered in a direction which opposes a change in direction of wind force on the sail whereby to keep the vessel on course.

3. A steering arrangement according to claim 1 or 2 further comprising tensioning means for opposing tension in the control line between the winch and the sail.

4. A steering arrangement according to claim 3 wherein the tensioning means connects between the winch mount and a mounting point on the vessel.

5. A steering arrangement according to claim 3 or 4 wherein the strength of the tensioning force applied by the tensioning means is adjustable.

6. A steering arrangement according to any one of claims 3 to 5 wherein the tensioning means is a shock cord.

7. A steering arrangement according to claim 6 wherein there are at least two shock cords for connecting between the mounting point and the winch mount, each shock cord being selectively connectable to the winch mount according to a required tension.

8. A steering arrangement according to any one of the preceding claims wherein the force transmitting means comprises first and second drive arms and a pivot arm, the pivot arm being pivotably mounted to the vessel at a position spaced from the winch mount, the first drive arm connecting between the winch mount and the pivot arm and the second drive arm connecting between the pivot arm and the helm.

9. A steering arrangement according to any one of claims 1 to 7 wherein the force transmitting means comprises a pivot arm which is pivotably mounted to the vessel at a position spaced from the winch mount, a first drive arm connecting between the winch mount and the pivot arm, a line connecting the pivot arm to the helm and a tensioning line connecting the helm to the vessel.

10. A steering arrangement according to any one of claims 1 to 7 wherein the force transmitting means comprises a pulley which is pivotably mounted to the vessel, a first drive arm mounted on the first pulley, a second drive arm hingedly connected to the first drive arm and to the helm and a cable arrangement for translating movement of the winch mount to rotational movement of the first pulley.

11. A steering arrangement according to claim 10 wherein the cable arrangement and the pulley are arranged such that movement of the winch mount causes a larger movement of the pulley.

12. A steering arrangement according to any one of claims 1 to 7 wherein there is a port-side winch mount and a starboard-side winch mount, and the force transmitting means connects both winch mounts to the helm.

13. A steering arrangement according to claim 12 further comprising a port-side pulley, a starboard-side pulley and a cable loop which passes around both the port-side pulley and the starboard-side pulley and acts upon the helm, the port-side pulley and

starboard-side pulley being connected to the winch mount on their respective sides of the vessel by cables.

14. A steering arrangement according to claim 13 wherein the cable loop further comprises a tensioner for maintaining tension in the cable loop.

15. A steering arrangement according to claim 13 or 14 further comprising a clutch for acting between the cable loop and the helm, the clutch being movable between an engaged position in which the cable loop acts on the helm to steer the vessel, and a disengaged position in which the cable loop does not act on the helm and the vessel can be manually steered.

16. A steering arrangement according to any one of claims 12 to 15 wherein the cable loop and cables are housed in protective guards.

17. A steering arrangement according to any one of the preceding claims wherein the winch mount permits movement of the winch in a linear direction along the vessel.

18. A steering arrangement according to claim l 7 wherein the winch mount comprises a platform for receiving the winch, runners mounted on the vessel and linear bearings for allowing the platform to roll along the runners.

19. A steering arrangement according to any one of claims 1 to 16 wherein the winch mount permits rotational movement of the winch about a mounting point on the vessel.

20. A steering arrangement according to any one of the preceding claims further comprising locking means for selectively locking the winch mount whereby to allow the vessel to be sailed by use of the control line.

21. A steering arrangement according to any one of the preceding claims wherein the force transmitting means acts upon a tiller of the vessel.

22. A steering arrangement according to any one of claims 1 to 20 wherein the force transmitting means acts upon a wheel for operating a rudder of the vessel.

23. A steering arrangement according to any one of the preceding claims wherein the sail is a foresail of the vessel.

24. A steering arrangement according to any one of the preceding claims further comprising a winch mounted on the winch mount.

25. A sailing vessel incorporating a steering arrangement according to any one of the preceding claims.

26. A winch mount for a sailing vessel comprising a mount for receiving a winch and for fixing to a surface of the vessel, the mount permitting movement of the winch relative to the vessel.

27. A winch mount according to any one of the preceding claims wherein the mount permits movement of the winch in a linear direction along the vessel.

28. A winch mount according to claim 27 comprising a platform for receiving the winch, runners for fixing to a surface of the vessel and linear bearings for allowing the platform to roll along the runners.

29. A winch mount according to claim 26 wherein the mount permits rotational movement of the winch about a mounting point on the vessel.

30. A winch mount according to any one of claims 26 to 29 further comprising locking means for selectively locking the position of the winch mount with respect to the vessel. 31. A winch incorporating a winch mount according to any one of claims 26 to 30.

32. A steering arrangement, sailing vessel, winch or winch mount substantially as described herein with reference to, or as shown in, Figures 3 to 18 of the accompanying drawings.

Most of that is patent-lawyer's guff, it's just the way they write this stuff. The significant part is claim 1. Also worth noting that he claims a couple of alternative ways of doing the same thing, one where the winch slides back and forth instead of pivoting, and a linkage using control cables instead of rods, presumably for winches mounted in an awkward location with respect to the tiller.

Pete

 

[Iain C]

Hi Iain

This is why I need the investment. I've been struggling with a shoestring budget on this project for the last few. Its a great product, but I come from an engineering background and I know my marketing skills are limited. The investment would pay for a more professional approach. Here's the link if want to consider http://seedrs.com/startups/the-steersman?promo_code=VJLMW84Q

Panthablue, I was giving you some feedback on your Seedrs site, and you've sent me a link to your Seedrs site if I want to consider it. Hmmmm...

Genuinely, if you want any hope of this getting off the ground, go and make some more, give them to people who are about to go around the world on the basis that they get some film/write a blog (very common these days) and come back when you have got some proof it works over a sustained period. Without social proof, an idea is nothing.

Good luck with it, and I mean that genuinely.