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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Er yeah, bjb. Its a lousy pic but the best I've got at the moment
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New Boat Commissioning
- Thread starter Moody
- Start date
Er yeah, bjb. Its a lousy pic but the best I've got at the moment
MYAG
Well-Known Member
........Information is power and the less information the customer has about the dealer's costs and margin, the better it is for the dealer
Ahh, isn't that the truth, and it applies to the boat builder too. For every new boat I purchase I get nearer that truth, but only nearer. Indeed it is a cottage industry, not least in the pricing dept! I generally start negotiations with, "OK, what price is it today and what is included", then take it from there. God forbid you want something special that is not price listed!
BUT, with essentials like commissioning and antifouling being sold as extra's the builders/dealers deserve all the negative comments they recieve.
Would you take the risk of pricing a boat without these essentials, only to have the buyer insist you throw them in as part of the deal? Its already included in the initial price....... just games imho.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I've only spent the last 22 yrs owning and running a company selling high value capital equipment so give me some credit for knowing what's good marketing practice and what isn't. Believe me, it pisses customers off to think they are paying £x for something and then find out they are paying £x + y + z for it. All they want to know is the final total price so just give it to them. Secondly, by quoting items as extras, you are giving the customer obvious tools to negotiate with as in he'll agree to buy the boat if the dealer throws in delivery, commissioning, antifouling etc foc. Information is power and the less information the customer has about the dealer's costs and margin, the better it is for the dealer
That is precisely the point I am making. Buyers like you spending lots of money like something on which to negotiate. Commissioning varies from customer to customer - why not be transparent and say this is what it costs if you have it done here, this is what it costs if you have it done somewhere else, and of course you can always do it yourself.
If every vendor quoted only an all in price for what they think the average customer will want and pay for, they will never sell a boat like that. They offer a menu - just like the Bentley (and the new Morgan I was looking at today) then you negotiate your spec and price - which is all in at the end of the day.
I fail to see how you can be "p*****d off". You know you have to pay for this some way or other - nobody else is going to. What difference does it make how it is presented?
I cannot think of any high ticket semi customised product that is advertised and sold at a single all in price. Even buying a humble Ford Focus you get a menu of features and prices where you pick what you want and the salesman does the calculation - then you negotiate.
So why do you think it should be any different for a built to order £200k boat?
I think what people don't appreciate from my experience of selling high value boats is the amount of time and effort that goes into commissioning. They will easily spend thousands on special upholstery, fancy electronics and so on but consider boring things like two men spending two days epoxy coating and antifouling as valuless!
I know what would happen if you only offered an all in price right from the start. Firstly it would look too high. Secondly what you put in there would not be what a specific customer wanted. Thirdly the customer would want to know what the vendor is hiding in the price. Finally the first thing he would ask is how can I get that for less than you are curently quoting - to which the answer is, these are the things we can leave out and this is how much less it would be. This list would be identical to the options list you currently object to. Back where we started!
I am pretty sure in your line of business your salesmen have a price list to work to. That they listen to the customer's requirements, show him what the list prices are, get specific quotes for the things that are not on the standard price list, draw up the final spec and then agree an all in price. Or do you have a unique methodology that avoids all that?
stelican
Well-Known Member
Most manufacturers have very comprehensive pdi sheets listing the testing and inspecting that the dealer has to carry out and sign off.
Defects found and rectified are subject to warranty claims between the dealer and manufacturers
The initial antifouling of 40ft boat is labour intensive and with materials could easily be £800 plus tax
Most dealers bump the pdi cost up in hope of recovering a part of the large discount the customer has demanded on the boat!
Perhaps it might be worth stating this again
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
That is precisely the point I am making. Buyers like you spending lots of money like something on which to negotiate. Commissioning varies from customer to customer - why not be transparent and say this is what it costs if you have it done here, this is what it costs if you have it done somewhere else, and of course you can always do it yourself
So you want to give the customer a stick to beat you with and reduce your margin. Wierd. Commissioning costs dont vary from customer to customer. They are a cost the dealer can estimate and include in his price. If they vary so much, why do dealers quote commissioning costs as a fixed up front charge? Training and handover costs may vary but thats a different story
If every vendor quoted only an all in price for what they think the average customer will want and pay for, they will never sell a boat like that. They offer a menu - just like the Bentley (and the new Morgan I was looking at today) then you negotiate your spec and price - which is all in at the end of the day.
Bentley do not offer the PDI and body undersealing as optional extras. They're included in the price just as commisioning and a/fouling should be in the cost of a boat. What Bentley do offer are additional prices for optional extras and as the term suggests, the extras are optional and not actually required to make the vehicle work. Commisioning and a/fouling are not optional extras
I know what would happen if you only offered an all in price right from the start. Firstly it would look too high. Secondly what you put in there would not be what a specific customer wanted. Thirdly the customer would want to know what the vendor is hiding in the price. Finally the first thing he would ask is how can I get that for less than you are curently quoting - to which the answer is, these are the things we can leave out and this is how much less it would be. This list would be identical to the options list you currently object to. Back where we started!
I go back to what I said in the beginning, Information is power. If the customer doesn't know the dealer's costs, then the dealer has a better position from which to negotiate. For example, the dealer knows antifouling costs him, say, £2k and he's included £2k in the price of the boat to cover it. The customer asks for a discount. The dealer could say that he will discount the boat by £1k but the customer has to do his own antifouling. Customer is happy because he got a discount and the dealer is happy because he got a £1k extra margin. Breaking down the price of a product into different items only gives the customer a way to negotiate the cost of those items away
I am pretty sure in your line of business your salesmen have a price list to work to. That they listen to the customer's requirements, show him what the list prices are, get specific quotes for the things that are not on the standard price list, draw up the final spec and then agree an all in price. Or do you have a unique methodology that avoids all that?
Yes a very complex pricelist but the sales engineers dont give that to the customer. They listen to the customer's requirements and then prepare a quote with a single price for a fully specced up machine including delivery, commissioning and training. If we have to start discounting, at least we know our costs and the customer doesn't and we can often finesse a situation to appear to be giving away more than we actually are. It's just common sense
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You are labouring under a number of misunderstandings. Whatever you say, delivery and commissioning does vary substantially from customer to customer. Won't bore you with details, but the difference in delivery and commissioning my new boat in 2001 in Greece was nearly twice what it would have been if I had it done in France and 50% more than UK. As I wanted the boat in Greece, the other prices were irrelevant.
There is nothing wrong with having a published price list itemising the basic cost of the boat plus items where customers have a choice or where costs might vary. The comparison with a car are spurious as the variability of delivery etc are much smaller and more predictable.
You seem confused about the role of information. One the one hand you want to be able to negotiate (with a suggestion that the dealer is out to get an advantage over you) and on the other hand (when it suits you) you don't want to give out information. You can't have it both ways.
An itemised price list has advantages for both buyer and seller. Each knows what things cost which aids decision making. If you had a "standard delivery and commissioning" cost in the basic price, you would still have to qualify it by restricting it to one location - and then have a supplementary price for any location different from the "standard".
What would not be acceptable is to agree a contract price and then at the last minute the vendor to say "sorry guv, forgot to tell you there are some extra costs". That is why it is up to the buyer to make sure he has negotiated a fixed price and he is clear exactly what is included and what is not.
Not difficult, surely?
BTW have you ever asked boat builders and dealers why they price in this way? They all do it so I guess they have all come to the same conclusion that it is the right way - or of course they are all wrong!
There is nothing wrong with having a published price list itemising the basic cost of the boat plus items where customers have a choice or where costs might vary. The comparison with a car are spurious as the variability of delivery etc are much smaller and more predictable.
You seem confused about the role of information. One the one hand you want to be able to negotiate (with a suggestion that the dealer is out to get an advantage over you) and on the other hand (when it suits you) you don't want to give out information. You can't have it both ways.
An itemised price list has advantages for both buyer and seller. Each knows what things cost which aids decision making. If you had a "standard delivery and commissioning" cost in the basic price, you would still have to qualify it by restricting it to one location - and then have a supplementary price for any location different from the "standard".
What would not be acceptable is to agree a contract price and then at the last minute the vendor to say "sorry guv, forgot to tell you there are some extra costs". That is why it is up to the buyer to make sure he has negotiated a fixed price and he is clear exactly what is included and what is not.
Not difficult, surely?
BTW have you ever asked boat builders and dealers why they price in this way? They all do it so I guess they have all come to the same conclusion that it is the right way - or of course they are all wrong!
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Tranona, I'm bailing out of this thread as I have done on others with you. We both hold strong views on certain issues and really whatever each one of us says is not going to change those views
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Tranona, I'm bailing out of this thread as I have done on others with you. We both hold strong views on certain issues and really whatever each one of us says is not going to change those views
Disappointing because you give me an insight into a world that is strange to me!