Navigation lights question

Yealm

Yealm

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I'm a bit unsure on this - could anyone help me with below ?

Am i right in thinking there are 3 states a vessel can be in regarding lights -
1) anchored
2) making way (ie under propulsion - sail, oar or engine)
3) underway but not making way (ie drifting with tide or windage) ?

so if a vessel is restricted in ability to manoeuvre, for these 3 states...

1) anchored - RWR special lights plus anchor lights
2) making way - RWR special lights plus nav lights (sternlight, masthead and side lights)
3) underway but not making way - RWR special lights only

Is this all correct ?

And finally, if a motorboat is drifting (underway but not making way) with no engine on, what lights should it display ?

Many thanks !
 
I think you may be confusing 'restricted in ability to manouevre' which relates to being unable to fully manoeuvre due to work being undertaken (e.g. dredging) and 'not under command'. (Few of us on this forum will ever be RAM, but we might be NUC on occasion.)

I can't recall any general (added subsequently) distinction being made, for the purpose of lights, between underway and making way. If you are underway and can't make way, presumably you are 'not under command', otherwise if you are underway you are just a normal vessel, even if not making way at the particular moment. If you are anchored or moored or aground you are not underway.

So, as I see it -
1) Anchored - just anchor lights
2) making way - same as underway below
3) underway - normal nav lights + RAM
Corrected by later post below

p.s. Forgot the motorboat underway but not making way. Normal nav lights, unless unable to make way (e.g. unable to start engine), in which case add Not Under Command lights.
 
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LittleSister said:
I think you may be confusing 'restricted in ability to manouevre' which relates to being unable to fully manoeuvre due to work being undertaken (e.g. dredging) and 'not under command'. (Few of us on this forum will ever be RAM, but we might be NUC on occasion.)

I can't recall any distinction being made, for the purpose of lights, between underway and making way. If you are underway and can't make way, presumably you are 'not under command', otherwise if you are underway you are just a normal vessel, even if not making way at the particular moment. If you are anchored or moored or aground you are not underway.

So, as I see it -
1) Anchored - just anchor lights
2) making way - same as underway below
3) underway - normal nav lights + RAM

p.s. Forgot the motorboat underway but not making way. Normal nav lights, unless unable to make way (e.g. unable to start engine), in which case add Not Under Command lights.
Click to expand...

Google Image Result for https://anzacsailingaroundtheworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/545_navigation_lights_international_rules_002.jpg?w=584

Can you see the image file?
It shows 3 different light configurations for restricted in ability to manoeuvre - which is kind of what my question was around..

Also re the motorboat drifting, it might be doing that out of choice ie enjoying the peace and quiet, whilst still 100% under command..
 
Yealm said:
Google Image Result for https://anzacsailingaroundtheworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/545_navigation_lights_international_rules_002.jpg?w=584

Can you see the image file?
It shows 3 different light configurations for restricted in ability to manoeuvre - which is kind of what my question was around..

Also re the motorboat drifting, it might be doing that out of choice ie enjoying the peace and quiet, whilst still 100% under command..
Click to expand...

You are quite right, I stand corrected. There are division within classes such RAM and NUC between under way and making way. But not more generally, as far as I can recall.

Yes, I agree re drifting motorboat. That was a point I was trying to make: . Not under way does not (necessarily) mean not under command.

I don't have the full regs to hand at the moment. but I think only vessels over 12m required to show RAM and NUC lights. (though I've been in situations where I would very much liked to have urgently shown NUC lights!).
 
LittleSister said:
You are quite right, I stand corrected. There are division within classes such RAM and NUC between under way and making way. But not more generally, as far as I can recall.

Yes, I agree re drifting motorboat. That was a point I was trying to make: . Not under way does not (necessarily) mean not under command.

I don't have the full regs to hand at the moment. but I think only vessels over 12m required to show RAM and NUC lights. (though I've been in situations where I would very much liked to have urgently shown NUC lights!).
Click to expand...

Thanks - so assuming the drifting motorboat is drifting from choice, has engine running but not making way, what lights should he display (assume it's 20m) ?
He won't have any special lights.
Nor navigation lights, if he's not making way.

So no lights at all ?!
Or is a drifting boat assumed to be NUC or RIATM and should display these special lights ?

I'm baffled !
 
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Yealm said:
Thanks - so assuming the drifting motorboat is drifting from choice, what lights should he display (assume it's 20m) ?
Click to expand...

Rule 23a.

Masthead light (or lights, if over 50m)
Sidelights.
Stern light.

He may not be “making way”, but since he’s not attached to the shore or the seabed he is “under way”.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/281965/msn1781.pdf - page 16 for Rule 23, and the bottom of page 5 for the definition of “underway”.

As ever, if in doubt google “msn1781” and re-read the actual rules instead of random images on the Internet ;)

Pete
 
prv said:
Rule 23a.

Masthead light (or lights, if over 50m)
Sidelights.
Stern light.

He may not be “making way”, but since he’s not attached to the shore or the seabed he is “under way”.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/281965/msn1781.pdf - page 16 for Rule 23, and the bottom of page 5 for the definition of “underway”.

As ever, if in doubt google “msn1781” and re-read the actual rules instead of random images on the Internet ;)

Pete
Click to expand...
Thanks thats great.

So reading through Colregs, it looks like the distinction in lights between making way and underway (but not making way), only relates to RAM, NUC and fishing vessels ?
 
Just checked with quick look at the full ColRegs, and I've corrected my original post,

Vessel Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre is (contrary to what I first said) as you suggested in your first post
1) anchored - RWR special lights plus anchor lights
2) making way - RWR special lights plus nav lights (sternlight, masthead and side lights)
3) underway but not making way - RWR special lights only
But as I said earlier, RAM is unlikely to apply to us leisure boaters.

I agree with PRV on the lights for a motor vessel, including a drifting motorboat - if you are underway it doesn't make any difference whether or not you are making way (unless you are one of the special classes RAM, NUC, etc.). The lights you display are the same. Note also your obligation to keep out of the way of other vessels, etc.,remains the same!

In the event you were drifting in a motorboat because you were NUC, you could display NUC lights (but are not obliged to if under 12m), in which case you would not display your side, steaming and stern lights if you were not making way.

Yealm said:
Thanks thats great.

So reading through Colregs, it looks like the distinction in lights between making way and underway (but not making way), only relates to RAM, CBD and fishing vessels ?
Click to expand...

Yes, plus Pilots.
Corrected
 
Last edited:
LittleSister said:
Just checked with quick look at the full ColRegs, and I've corrected my original post,

Vessel Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre is (contrary to what I first said) as you suggested in your first post
1) anchored - RWR special lights plus anchor lights
2) making way - RWR special lights plus nav lights (sternlight, masthead and side lights)
3) underway but not making way - RWR special lights only
But as I said earlier, RAM is unlikely to apply to us leisure boaters.

I agree with PRV on the lights for a motor vessel, including a drifting motorboat - if you are underway it doesn't make any difference whether or not you are making way (unless you are one of the special classes RAM, NUC, etc.). The lights you display are the same. Note also your obligation to keep out of the way of other vessels, etc.,remains the same!

In the event you were drifting in a motorboat because you were NUC, you could display NUC lights (but are not obliged to if under 12m), in which case you would not display your side, steaming and stern lights if you were not making way.



Yes, plus Pilots.
Click to expand...

According to below, there is no distinction between making way and underway (but not making way) for pilots ?
(although the chart i saw on google DID make a distinction !!)

Rule 29
Pilot Vessels
(a) A vessel engaged on pilotage duty shall exhibit:

  • (i) at or near the masthead, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being white and the lower red;
  • (ii) when underway, in addition, sidelights and a sternlight;
  • (iii) when at anchor, in addition to the lights prescribed in subparagraph (i), the light, lights, or shape prescribed in Rule 30 for vessels at anchor.
(b) A pilot vessel when not engaged on pilotage duty shall exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed for a similar vessel of her length.
 
ps
Colregs seem to define underway but not making way...
not sure either expression is self explanatory - both need defining !
 
Yealm said:
Colregs seem to define underway but not making way...
not sure either expression is self explanatory - both need defining !
Click to expand...

They don't actually use the phrase "making way" on its own anywhere - it's always "making way through the water". I suppose it wouldn't hurt to define that, but it seems pretty unambiguous to any seafarer already. The rules clearly assume a working knowledge of maritime terminology since they don't start by defining words like "port" and "starboard".

The Colregs meaning of "underway", on the other hand, did need defining since in ordinary maritime English it does tend to imply positive movement. Maybe they should have picked a better word, but we're stuck with it now. A bit like all the people perpetually confused by masthead lights that have most of the yacht's mast above them.

Pete
 
prv said:
They don't actually use the phrase "making way" on its own anywhere - it's always "making way through the water". I suppose it wouldn't hurt to define that, but it seems pretty unambiguous to any seafarer already. The rules clearly assume a working knowledge of maritime terminology since they don't start by defining words like "port" and "starboard".

The Colregs meaning of "underway", on the other hand, did need defining since in ordinary maritime English it does tend to imply positive movement. Maybe they should have picked a better word, but we're stuck with it now. A bit like all the people perpetually confused by masthead lights that have most of the yacht's mast above them.

Pete
Click to expand...
thanks Pete, that makes perfect sense.
 
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