barryg
Active Member
Has anyone used the Nasa ais radar as its called, would it be worth having for cross channel as an extra safety devise, I am thinking of poor vis.
Nasa ais radar
- Thread starter barryg
- Start date
Talbot
Well-Known Member
yes a number of us on the forum use AIS (Note dont call it radar cause it isnt) The majority use it with a Nasa AIS engine mated to a laptop with www.shipplotter.com software. This provides not just data on where they are, but also audible warning of future problems.
A
Anonymous
Guest
We've just had a long discussion about AIS, if you search it'll come up. In summary, the majority felt that the main use of AIS for traffic avoidance is when used in conjunction with a radar. When used by itself, without a radar, it does not show any vessels that are not AIS equipped (e.g. yachts, fishing vessels, etc.) nor does it show other non-boaty solids.
The question was raised about how valuable the detailed information (vessel name, MMSI, etc.) is in practice as yachts do not normally call ships on the VHF either by DSC or Ch16 - it is highly unusual and would only be done in unusual circumstances.
The question was raised about how valuable the detailed information (vessel name, MMSI, etc.) is in practice as yachts do not normally call ships on the VHF either by DSC or Ch16 - it is highly unusual and would only be done in unusual circumstances.
joss
Well-Known Member
Read my earlier post 'NASA - bad customer service' before you buy!
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthreaded.p...rue#Post1086722
Jo
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthreaded.p...rue#Post1086722
Jo
WayneS
Well-Known Member
Have to say that I have always had great service from them. My AIS Engine failed too not long after I installed it in the summer. Sent it back to them (Bought mine thru YachtBits) and it was back with me 48hrs later, no cost to me. They did report a problem was found though.
I wonder if the following may point to the possible issue with yours. This is an excerpt from an email I received from shipmodul.com when I enquired about their multiplexers
---------------------------
There is one caveat to using this multiplexer: it does not work with the NASA AIS engine. This is because the so called RS-232 output of the NASA is not a real RS-232 port, it cannot deliver enough power to drive a galvanically isolated input of a multiplexer. Other AIS receivers work just fine.
---------------------------------
I wonder if your unit was "working" but was outside of RS232 tolerances. So as far as NASA are concerned it was working on the bench with test equipment but not in the real world.
Wayne
Again: No connection to NASA, just a happy customer to date
I wonder if the following may point to the possible issue with yours. This is an excerpt from an email I received from shipmodul.com when I enquired about their multiplexers
---------------------------
There is one caveat to using this multiplexer: it does not work with the NASA AIS engine. This is because the so called RS-232 output of the NASA is not a real RS-232 port, it cannot deliver enough power to drive a galvanically isolated input of a multiplexer. Other AIS receivers work just fine.
---------------------------------
I wonder if your unit was "working" but was outside of RS232 tolerances. So as far as NASA are concerned it was working on the bench with test equipment but not in the real world.
Wayne
Again: No connection to NASA, just a happy customer to date
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Barry, I would'nt waste money on a standalone AIS receiver. It is NOT a subsitute for radar (can only really see ships, but not boats, buoys, etc). I would suggest investing in a radar instead. Kills 2 birds with one stone: 1) safety + avoid traffic conflicts 2) navigation aid - indepentent backup to GPS and/or paper charts. Personally I think AIS is just a short term fad and marketing window to sell a gadget which is of very limited use. We all like gadgets on our boats, don't we /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif IMHO, AIS is a waste of space on a leisure boat. In time anyway, new generations of network plotter displays will have AIS and real time weather built in as standard (eg Raymarine, Garmin, Standard Horizon, Lowrance, etc).
In summary for crossing the channel in poor vis, then proper Radar is the man for the job (Raymarine, Garmin, Furuno, etc). Btw, I'm not a fan of JRC - suggest avoid. Raymarine however excel in this area and worth the price (at 4am on a nasty night in a busy shipping channel you'll certainly think so).
In summary for crossing the channel in poor vis, then proper Radar is the man for the job (Raymarine, Garmin, Furuno, etc). Btw, I'm not a fan of JRC - suggest avoid. Raymarine however excel in this area and worth the price (at 4am on a nasty night in a busy shipping channel you'll certainly think so).
WayneS
Well-Known Member
Sorry OceanFroggie but I have to disagree. AIS is not "a waste of space on a leisure boat"
I agree that it is not a substitute for Radar.
It is however an improvement (but not substitute for ) Mk1 Eyeball.
It does give you instant data on a transmitting vessel. you can see instantly if a target is of current danger. On a recent passage we picked up a couple of tugs (I know that they were tugs cos AIS told me so) which to MK1 Eyeball looked like they were on a course to give me some concern. the AIS data however showed them to be missing me by a mile. I was also seeing them on Radar but being short handed at the time and having to deal with a lot of stuff, I did not have the time to do radar plots and tracks. We have MARPA on our radar but that, on a small boat that is being thrown around by sea conditions is less than ideal.
AIS is a great addition to our safety systems and I think is here to stay. It was not designed for us leisure users, but is of great benefit to us.
Only my opinion of course.
Wayne
I agree that it is not a substitute for Radar.
It is however an improvement (but not substitute for ) Mk1 Eyeball.
It does give you instant data on a transmitting vessel. you can see instantly if a target is of current danger. On a recent passage we picked up a couple of tugs (I know that they were tugs cos AIS told me so) which to MK1 Eyeball looked like they were on a course to give me some concern. the AIS data however showed them to be missing me by a mile. I was also seeing them on Radar but being short handed at the time and having to deal with a lot of stuff, I did not have the time to do radar plots and tracks. We have MARPA on our radar but that, on a small boat that is being thrown around by sea conditions is less than ideal.
AIS is a great addition to our safety systems and I think is here to stay. It was not designed for us leisure users, but is of great benefit to us.
Only my opinion of course.
Wayne
fireball
Well-Known Member
Re: Nasa ais engine or display
As a counter argument Barry ....
As an extra safety aid I believe the AIS information is helpful and can backup decisions made by MarkI eyeball or Radar. Gadget or not, it can identify ships from beyond the visual horizon that might be a collision risk giving you an early warning to alter course or speed.
However, it is not a replacement for Radar for poor vis crossings (but who is stupid enough to cross the channel during a nasty night without radar or a bible? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) where you may come across vessels not equiped with an AIS transmitter.
The choice between AIS display and AIS engine depends on the equipment you already have on board and it's ability to display the information - bearing in mind that the NASA AIS display cannot (currently) output data to any other device (why oh why not?).
AIS engine at ~ £120 is far cheaper than any raymarine radar package - probably about 5% of the cost, however, a JRC radar package can be purchased for around £750 (i believe)
AIS Display can be purchased for around £200 - still only 10% of the Raymarine type package, but starts becoming significant compared to JRC.
There are a number of people on here who are rubbishing the usefulness of AIS - and say conventional radar is the only way to go - please open your mind to other posibilities - not everyone sails in fog/bad visibility conditions - some don't even set foot on the boat when it is like that. For them, the confirmation of collision risk (or lackof) provided by a simple AIS display is enough.
As a counter argument Barry ....
As an extra safety aid I believe the AIS information is helpful and can backup decisions made by MarkI eyeball or Radar. Gadget or not, it can identify ships from beyond the visual horizon that might be a collision risk giving you an early warning to alter course or speed.
However, it is not a replacement for Radar for poor vis crossings (but who is stupid enough to cross the channel during a nasty night without radar or a bible? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) where you may come across vessels not equiped with an AIS transmitter.
The choice between AIS display and AIS engine depends on the equipment you already have on board and it's ability to display the information - bearing in mind that the NASA AIS display cannot (currently) output data to any other device (why oh why not?).
AIS engine at ~ £120 is far cheaper than any raymarine radar package - probably about 5% of the cost, however, a JRC radar package can be purchased for around £750 (i believe)
AIS Display can be purchased for around £200 - still only 10% of the Raymarine type package, but starts becoming significant compared to JRC.
There are a number of people on here who are rubbishing the usefulness of AIS - and say conventional radar is the only way to go - please open your mind to other posibilities - not everyone sails in fog/bad visibility conditions - some don't even set foot on the boat when it is like that. For them, the confirmation of collision risk (or lackof) provided by a simple AIS display is enough.
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Fair comment Wayne, no problem. I still have a number of issues though with standalone AIS:
1) Some folk are lulled into thinging it's a low cost substitute for Radar
2) Currently most small craft don't transmit (ie inc yachts and mobos)
3) It doesn't show solid objects (sure it's not meant to)
4) Early versions are standalone and cumbersome to install
5) Not overlayed on RADAR display
What I do like about AIS is long range digital information on fast moving ships.
If all vessels, buoys and lights, etc transmitted than it would at least allow us to see much more, and assist navigation. On a calm night my radar can pick up small vessels like RIBs, tiny open fishing boats, etc, these will hardly ever have AIS in the future. If all vessels had AIS transmitters, particularly in busy areas, perhaps displays would become so cluttered as to make them unuseable. Sure future software will allow filtering based on size and speed of targets, but easy for users to hit the wrong button and miss targets.
I agree AIS can be an improvment. But, what I would like is a RADAR that overlays AIS information on known targets, and have a MARPA style tracking system that uses AIS data for targets with transponders, and old radar style marpa for non ais transmitting vessels. That way we can see the whole picture and not miss anything. And all in the one box!
Perhaps in the future new radar display functions from manufacturers like Raymarine and Garmin will automatically combine radar and AIS data for one unified display. I see AIS as an added function to a radar system as MARPA was years ago.
1) Some folk are lulled into thinging it's a low cost substitute for Radar
2) Currently most small craft don't transmit (ie inc yachts and mobos)
3) It doesn't show solid objects (sure it's not meant to)
4) Early versions are standalone and cumbersome to install
5) Not overlayed on RADAR display
What I do like about AIS is long range digital information on fast moving ships.
If all vessels, buoys and lights, etc transmitted than it would at least allow us to see much more, and assist navigation. On a calm night my radar can pick up small vessels like RIBs, tiny open fishing boats, etc, these will hardly ever have AIS in the future. If all vessels had AIS transmitters, particularly in busy areas, perhaps displays would become so cluttered as to make them unuseable. Sure future software will allow filtering based on size and speed of targets, but easy for users to hit the wrong button and miss targets.
I agree AIS can be an improvment. But, what I would like is a RADAR that overlays AIS information on known targets, and have a MARPA style tracking system that uses AIS data for targets with transponders, and old radar style marpa for non ais transmitting vessels. That way we can see the whole picture and not miss anything. And all in the one box!
Perhaps in the future new radar display functions from manufacturers like Raymarine and Garmin will automatically combine radar and AIS data for one unified display. I see AIS as an added function to a radar system as MARPA was years ago.
fireball
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps in the future new radar display functions from manufacturers like Raymarine and Garmin will automatically combine radar and AIS data for one unified display.
[/ QUOTE ]
Erm - the RM C and E series already do .
Perhaps in the future new radar display functions from manufacturers like Raymarine and Garmin will automatically combine radar and AIS data for one unified display.
[/ QUOTE ]
Erm - the RM C and E series already do .
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Erm - the RM C and E series already do .
[/ QUOTE ]Sure but you have to buy a separate AIS engine and hook it all up. Why not stick it all in the one box? (ie raymaine build in their own integrated engine). Less bits, keep it simple, less to install or break down. Also don't think they have yet integrated MARPA with AIS targets.
It's a bit like the old Hifi arguments years ago, separates "best of breed" bits for quality, or integrated for ease of use and simplicity.
Fireball, I agree with a lot of your sentiments. I am a self confessed gadget freak, but I don't like being sold the concept of stand alone AIS. What I would like is AIS fully integrated with existing radar/plotter systems.
Erm - the RM C and E series already do .
[/ QUOTE ]Sure but you have to buy a separate AIS engine and hook it all up. Why not stick it all in the one box? (ie raymaine build in their own integrated engine). Less bits, keep it simple, less to install or break down. Also don't think they have yet integrated MARPA with AIS targets.
It's a bit like the old Hifi arguments years ago, separates "best of breed" bits for quality, or integrated for ease of use and simplicity.
Fireball, I agree with a lot of your sentiments. I am a self confessed gadget freak, but I don't like being sold the concept of stand alone AIS. What I would like is AIS fully integrated with existing radar/plotter systems.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Difficult - do you have an all-in-one system - one bit goes down, it all goes ... or do you go for the seperates that can give a redundant backup...
If the AIS Display had NMEA out I'd have one of them - normal operation display via the chartplotter (Laptop), however, if the CP goes down - or is not on for whatever reason then the display still gives the information.
If the AIS Display had NMEA out I'd have one of them - normal operation display via the chartplotter (Laptop), however, if the CP goes down - or is not on for whatever reason then the display still gives the information.
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Yes good point (redundancy). For that very reason we have a separate radar/plotter (RM) and totally separate main plotter (Garmin). But two is enough, I'd like the AIS to be an integral part of the RM radar setup.
fireball
Well-Known Member
If it was me I'd make the AIS part of the Garmin setup - that way you can still get your AIS data in case of a radar display failure. Or ... still use Radar if the AIS or Garmin plotter play up.
I would think with an AIS engine you could output the data to both RM and Garmin display units - best of both worlds - does your Garmin accept AIS input?
I would think with an AIS engine you could output the data to both RM and Garmin display units - best of both worlds - does your Garmin accept AIS input?
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
...does your Garmin accept AIS input?
[/ QUOTE ]Good idea both, and Yes it does (2106), and even the portable 276C accepts AIS input. I'm a RM fan for radar and garmin for plotting (like their PC software). Thanks for the idea. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
...does your Garmin accept AIS input?
[/ QUOTE ]Good idea both, and Yes it does (2106), and even the portable 276C accepts AIS input. I'm a RM fan for radar and garmin for plotting (like their PC software). Thanks for the idea. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
fireball
Well-Known Member
no prob! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
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