Mystery Tax in Corfu

Vonasi said:
Some full time liveaboards that I know eat out six nights a week as they have the budget and enjoy it, others such as ourselves on a lower budget eat out rarely but buy good local ingredients instead. Some semi-liveaboards that I know spend six months of a year on board and eat out every night. My point is that I doubt once averaged out that there is much difference between the spend of charterers and that of boat owners, it's just that the charterers spend it faster and over a shorter period.

As any traveller will tell you - never eat on the front, head at least one street back to get better food at a lower price.
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My assessment of the situation agrees with yours. I've spent over €3500 so far this month in local businesses this last 4 weeks and gone nowhere. I don't think that is the end of it either. Then there is the €5000+ on the mooring and this new tax, whenever it comes. Owned boats make far more of a contribution to local economies.

BTW, one of your opponents on this is ex-charter management (axe to grind?) and the other seems to have only limited experience.
 
Vonasi said:
Unfortunately you are still asking me to take what one man says as gospel. No matter how experienced one man is he is still just one man. Too small a sample for me to take as a reliable survey which is why debate happens. If everyone just said 'Fred knows his stuff so we'll just repeat what Fred says' there would be no debate in the world at all.

Jim's experiences are of his time with his company in his location/s and from his position. Others have other experiences and observations from a different side of the fence and should be allowed to air them in a forum where Jim is commenting.

As others have said this is all thread drift just from me commenting that I'd like to see less charter boats here. Now what were we supposed to be talking about?
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Try my Italian posting , that should keep you going for a while :)
 
For the benefit of those here who are ignorant about the economics of a charter boat in Greece, I looked up the accounts of the last year I had my boat on charter there (2007). It was then an old (7 years) boat so was at the budget end of the market. In previous years it had averaged 18 weeks a year, but in this last year at the bottom of the fleet it achieved 13 weeks.

Key figures (in euros) are

Gross Income 15800
Less

Commission 3160
Insurance 1300
Licence 915
Moorings etc 2800
Winter Maintenance 1470
Running repairs 1600
Handover fees 2550

Total 13795

Profit 2005

The boat was licensed for 8 but averaged 5 bodies per charter. Typical expenditure per person per week on food, drink etc would be 200 euros, so the income for the 13 weeks would be 13000 euros.

So, even my underutilised boat contributed over 26000 euros to the local economy - plus of course the charterers air fares, taxi rides etc to get there. In a full operational year (18 weeks) the contribution would be nearer 35000 euros for one boat.

Now compare that with "liveaboards". As we know the subject of expenditure comes up here regularly and it seems a fair estimate for a year liveaboard costs is in the region of 15000 euros a year. Vic has some detailed figures to support this.

The infrastructure liveaboards depend on in Greece simply would not exist if it was not for the charter industry, so you can understand why many charter operators get a bit p****d off with liveaboards cluttering up the best quay spaces and anchorages when they are trying to earn a living.

On the other hand, most are reasonable people and just accept that others have the freedom to live on board as guests in the country, even though they contribute less to the economy, probably don't pay any taxes and constantly moan about those who have to earn a living.
 
Tranona said:
For the benefit of those here who are ignorant about the economics of a charter boat in Greece, I looked up the accounts of the last year I had my boat on charter there (2007). It was then an old (7 years) boat so was at the budget end of the market. In previous years it had averaged 18 weeks a year, but in this last year at the bottom of the fleet it achieved 13 weeks.

Key figures (in euros) are

Gross Income 15800
Less

Commission 3160
Insurance 1300
Licence 915
Moorings etc 2800
Winter Maintenance 1470
Running repairs 1600
Handover fees 2550

Total 13795

Profit 2005

The boat was licensed for 8 but averaged 5 bodies per charter. Typical expenditure per person per week on food, drink etc would be 200 euros, so the income for the 13 weeks would be 13000 euros.

So, even my underutilised boat contributed over 26000 euros to the local economy - plus of course the charterers air fares, taxi rides etc to get there. In a full operational year (18 weeks) the contribution would be nearer 35000 euros for one boat.

Now compare that with "liveaboards". As we know the subject of expenditure comes up here regularly and it seems a fair estimate for a year liveaboard costs is in the region of 15000 euros a year. Vic has some detailed figures to support this.

The infrastructure liveaboards depend on in Greece simply would not exist if it was not for the charter industry, so you can understand why many charter operators get a bit p****d off with liveaboards cluttering up the best quay spaces and anchorages when they are trying to earn a living.

On the other hand, most are reasonable people and just accept that others have the freedom to live on board as guests in the country, even though they contribute less to the economy, probably don't pay any taxes and constantly moan about those who have to earn a living.
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The REAL niggle is some spotty Aussie or Kiwi yuof or some over-plump over-arrogant blonde bimbo from a flotilla lead boat trying to keep a public quay clear just to allow their barely competent customers to experience a false idea of the cruising life when like the rest of us, if the quay happens to be full, you anchor off. Often they claim some authorisation from the local Mayor!

As to attempting to live on €15000 a year, I think you will find that this figure was put forward as a bare MINIMUM to just scrape-by on, some years ago. We spend WAY, WAY in excess of double that figure and so do all the other occupants of our marina pontoon and the rest of the marina! (We don't all hang out in the floating ghetto that is Vlikho, you know!)
 
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Steve C Cronin said:
As to attempting to live on €15000 a year, I think you will find that this figure was put forward as a bare MINIMUM to just scrape-by on, some years ago. We spend WAY, WAY in excess of double that figure and so do all the other occupants of our marina pontoon and the rest of the marina! (We don't all hang out in the floating ghetto that is Vlikho, you know!)
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You may well spend more - just as I did in the past, but if you do a search of this forum you will find the 15000 euros or so a year is quoted with pride (and even supported by detailed spreadsheets) by many contributors. These contributors are also sometimes the moaners - about the UK, money grabbing locals, others trying to earn a crust, difficult officials, unfathomable "rules" etc. Sometimes one wonders how they manage to survive at all if it is all so bad!
 
Steve C Cronin said:
The REAL niggle is some spotty Aussie or Kiwi yuof or some over-plump over-arrogant blonde bimbo from a flotilla lead boat trying to keep a public quay clear just to allow their barely competent customers to experience a false idea of the cruising life when like the rest of us, if the quay happens to be full, you anchor off. Often they claim some authorisation from the local Mayor!
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About a third of those who eventually buy their own boats to cruise more extensively, started to sail, or gained their first experience in charge of a boat, through flotilla companies (source, BMF surveys). This is especially true for older entrants to the cruising life (50 plus).

I made my mistakes in the cold tidal waters of UK. That was a more dangerous, and much less user friendly way of learning than through the flotilla experience (warm water, non-tidal, supervised).

If flotillas (and their novice incompetence) annoy, sail in areas which provide too rugged an experience for novices. As long as your visitors and crew can tolerate those conditions . . .
 
jimbaerselman said:
About a third of those who eventually buy their own boats to cruise more extensively, started to sail, or gained their first experience in charge of a boat, through flotilla companies (source, BMF surveys). This is especially true for older entrants to the cruising life (50 plus).

I made my mistakes in the cold tidal waters of UK. That was a more dangerous, and much less user friendly way of learning than through the flotilla experience (warm water, non-tidal, supervised).

If flotillas (and their novice incompetence) annoy, sail in areas which provide too rugged an experience for novices. As long as your visitors and crew can tolerate those conditions . . .
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Agreed - the Aegean has far less incompetent charterers that the Ionion, but they seemed to have a disproportionate number of utterly incompetent French! 5 attacks in all in 8 weeks - no other nationalities - so why the French?

Sorry - fred drift!
 
Chris_Robb said:
Agreed - the Aegean has far less incompetent charterers that the Ionion, but they seemed to have a disproportionate number of utterly incompetent French! 5 attacks in all in 8 weeks - no other nationalities - so why the French?

Sorry - fred drift!
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i supprose Chris every country have good and bad sailor , and no matter how long we been sailing now and then we all make cock ups , it just happen in your case you had a bad run of luck French sailor and when that happens as soon as you see anothe French sailor your expecting another dare I say it , ****** ,
we been very lucky this year , untill a few weeks back it seen as if we had the whole med for our selfs , but now it seens the whole Med has come to Croatia , we been surounded by Italian , but I am happy to say we not had one problem with them , this lot seen to know there stuff . the three problems we had is two with polish , both not enogh chain and drag on use and yes one french charter boat , who would insis that we was over his chain , which was an impossablity if you sew where he was moored and where we was , turned out his anchor was about a boat and a bit from his bow .
chin up mate , dont let them get you down .
www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com
 
Chris_Robb said:
Agreed - the Aegean has far less incompetent charterers that the Ionion, but they seemed to have a disproportionate number of utterly incompetent French! 5 attacks in all in 8 weeks - no other nationalities - so why the French?
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Our only significant collision for a while was administered by a French boat. We were anchored a hundred metres or more off the quay at Serifos. A boat left the quay moving at some speed straight at us. At about 20 metres I realised that they were going to hit us, so I bellowed at them. They turned sharply but ran their port side along our bow. Fortunately my bow roller stem fitting took all the impact and suffered no damage at all but they wiped out three or four of their stanchions. They anchored and I rowed over to speak to them, where the lady helm was devastated, in tears. For some reason she had not seen us. A liveaboard, not a charterer.
 
jimbaerselman said:
About a third of those who eventually buy their own boats to cruise more extensively, started to sail, or gained their first experience in charge of a boat, through flotilla companies (source, BMF surveys). This is especially true for older entrants to the cruising life (50 plus).

I made my mistakes in the cold tidal waters of UK. That was a more dangerous, and much less user friendly way of learning than through the flotilla experience (warm water, non-tidal, supervised).

If flotillas (and their novice incompetence) annoy, sail in areas which provide too rugged an experience for novices. As long as your visitors and crew can tolerate those conditions . . .
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Incompetence can never be tolerated when the incompetent are in charge of several tons of machinery but then my point was rather aimed at the leaders who assume some sort of priority when attempting to berth 12 boats rather unreasonably all together just to try to create or preserve some sort of group spirit. If they try it on with me they get abuse. I use the Ionian only as a stepping stone to the gulfs and beyond and how refreshing it is to get there. I will make NO concession just to enrich the likes of the two Mr Neilsons, Thomson Tui et al.

I too learned my skills in home waters, making our first 26 Channel crossings in a motor boat 18' loa (16.4' lwl) and only the latter half with a VHF. Motor Boat & Yachting magazine decided to call us "Cruising Champions" that year. We often chartered in Greece in those days to get a bit of decent weather.

We will be down around your way, later this month.
 
vyv_cox said:
Our only significant collision for a while was administered by a French boat. We were anchored a hundred metres or more off the quay at Serifos. A boat left the quay moving at some speed straight at us. At about 20 metres I realised that they were going to hit us, so I bellowed at them. They turned sharply but ran their port side along our bow. Fortunately my bow roller stem fitting took all the impact and suffered no damage at all but they wiped out three or four of their stanchions. They anchored and I rowed over to speak to them, where the lady helm was devastated, in tears. For some reason she had not seen us. A liveaboard, not a charterer.
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I can sympathise with them - I have had a number of near bangs when something was in the blind spot - you just learn to move your field of vision around so that blind spots are not blind spots. When an apology is received, then all is (almost) forgiven.

The problem with 3 of our incidents - they just sneaked off - leaving us to our fate. One can forgive mistakes, we all make them, but its how they behave after that counts.

I hope that you have sorted the damage - but French insurers are notoriously evasive.
 
Steve C Cronin said:
That's because "Inverted Snobbery" is rife on here.
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Maybe, but perhaps it's because the site attracts many who have personality disorders and/or lack social skills.
The ybw.com site is significantly more ill-mannered than many others I visit - it frequently degenerates into a shouting match where reasonable, logical and knowledgeable people like Tranona, JimB and Barnac1e are shouted down by illiterati.
 
charles_reed said:
Maybe, but perhaps it's because the site attracts many who have personality disorders and/or lack social skills.
The ybw.com site is significantly more ill-mannered than many others I visit - it frequently degenerates into a shouting match where reasonable, logical and knowledgeable people like Tranona, JimB and Barnac1e are shouted down by illiterati.
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I would agree with SOME of your selection but certainly not all.
 
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