Mystery Tax in Corfu

Steve C Cronin

Steve C Cronin

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We were very late in commissioning the boat this year. It was only three weeks ago.

I went to the Port Police in Gouvia Marina to get my (now only annual) stamp and the young lady officer there was very impressed with all my documentation and previously provided crew list. She spent ages looking through my papers folder and commented that maybe the picture on my ICC was one of my sons'. She knew nothing of the new Greek P.L. levels for insurance cover.

Then she asked me for a tax of €15 to which I responded by saying "That's a new one on me" but in Greek. She said it was a very old Greek tax but I have never been asked for it before. She accepted this saying w.t.e. "OK but don't blame me if someone else fines you, somewhere"

Any ideas?

Currently laid up in Levkas fitting a new autopilot - these new Raymarine fancy connections are driving me mad!
 
We checked in to Gouvia Marina Pp a couple of weeks ago and paid the 15€. I thought it was for the Dekpa but she didn't have any so wrote same on our crew list.

We also had to go to Corfu Town by taxi to check in with the customs and passport people as we had not arrived from a Schengen country - Croatia is EU but not Schengen. That was not a problem as we wanted to visit the town anyway but when we left I didn't want to make a second taxi ride so I said we were probably going to return via Italy, depending on the winds.

The port police in Corfu Town also asked to see our paperwork but the only thing she was interested in was the receipt from the Gouvia police for the 15€.

The Italy plan seemed to be OK with the authorities. Of course, the winds took us straight back to Croatia and the passport guy when we checked in appeared to have no interest in the fact the our passports had a Greek entry stamp but no exit.

I Don't understand the system but, then again, I don't think the Greeks did either as each office we went to, harbour police, passport control and customs suggested that the other office had done the wrong paperwork.

In fact, as I was leaving the Police office in Croatia the officer said "have a good time in Greece" so I said no, we've just arrived from Greece and have we done the wrong paperwork but he just smiled and said "it doesn't matter!

Richard
 
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RichardS said:
I Don't understand the system but, then again, I don't think the Greeks did either as each office we went to, harbour police, passport control and customs suggested that the other office had done the wrong paperwork.
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This sort of thing is an amusing annoyance to many of us but to charter companies it can be more serious. A friend who runs a small skippered charter company is frequently told that paperwork completed at a previous port is incorrect and it costs him money to have it done 'correctly'. In one very bad case he had to remain in one port for three or four days to get some bureaucratic problem solved, while his clients kicked their heels. That one cost him a lot.
 
Steve C Cronin said:
We were very late in commissioning the boat this year. It was only three weeks ago.

I went to the Port Police in Gouvia Marina to get my (now only annual) stamp and the young lady officer there was very impressed with all my documentation and previously provided crew list. She spent ages looking through my papers folder and commented that maybe the picture on my ICC was one of my sons'.!
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Perhaps she wanted 15 Euros to buy her guide dog some decent food?
 
Personally I think it was another attempt by the Greeks to carry out an devious attack on Steve. An underhand and unfair attempt - I'd have refused to pay, on principle, especially as Steve hadn't just re-entered Greece.
Apostoliki persuaded me (she was reading from her official guidance notes) that I had to get a DEKPA - then told me I never had to report to the PP, or pay any dues until this time next year.
I guess that for those of us who mix anchoring with being in a port, the new tax will be a saving as well as far less inconvenience.
The only drawback is that the PP will be released for other duties - like checking on anchor balls and lights, pyrotechnics and extinguishers, liferafts and lifejackets.
And when all the ports have been privatised - then the pravateers will charge for water, electricity and mooring lines.
Plenty more to have a good grouse about.
It's a pity sailaboutvic has gone off...
 
Vonasi said:
Anything that deters someone from wanting to run a charter fleet seems like a good idea to me. Too many damned charter boats here already.

I've never understood why charterers pay lower port fees than people who own their own boat.
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Good evening;

If I understand this complaint correctly laws should be introduced to reserve harbours, ports and bays for privately owned yachts to ensure grubby non boat owners are not allowed to inconvenience private yacht owners.

The fact that charters contribute more to local economy and employment for many more people than private owners should be ignored. Seems like a marvelous idea to me - is there an icon to indicate "sarcasm" - can't find it if there is.

Squeaky
 
Vonasi said:
You do not understand the complaint correctly.

Charter boats are in use for on average ten to twelve weeks in a year where as liveaboards spend money for fifty two weeks in a year. A boat with two people on board eating and drinking and shopping and maintaining the boat and spending the winter in a marina will spend far more in a year than a few holiday makers having a few meals out. Also remember that most charter fees do not get paid to Greek companies.

I suppose at least the charterers keep the gelcoat repairers busier than the liveaboards though.
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Vonasi I don't think you will fine any one more anti charter boat them me , really I ashamed of my views as for many years I skipper bare boat charters and earn well out of it , but as a private boat owner , there have given me more problems over the years then the worst of weather conditions you can imagine , but I can't agree with your view regarding Live aboard spend more in eating out then the charter yacht , I would say true liveabourd ( people who spend 52 weeks on there boat not the once that come out for a few months ) spend very little in eating out , we eat out two or three times a months the most four times and that rare , and most of the other we know do the same , two reasons 1 because a lot of the time we come away very disappointed in the food as well as it being over priced and I am the less fussy guy when it comes to food and 2 we enjoying eating on board inviting friend over new and old . Ok there is a third reason most of us are on a budget .


www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com
 
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Vonasi said:
Charter boats are in use for on average ten to twelve weeks in a year where as liveaboards spend money for fifty two weeks in a year. A boat with two people on board eating and drinking and shopping and maintaining the boat and spending the winter in a marina will spend far more in a year than a few holiday makers having a few meals out. Also remember that most charter fees do not get paid to Greek companies.
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(1) Charter boats aim for 20 weeks occupancy a year. Some manage 24. Those filled less than 15 weeks a year are likely to be pulled out of the market
(2) Boat occupancy is 4 to 6, proportional to length, with a few 2 aboard.
(3) Per day spending by one holidaymaker is two or three times the spending by a small boat (under 12m) live-aboard occupant.
(4) The cost of operating the boats is at least double that of operating a live-aboard, since they spend 6 days a week going from port to port.
(5) Operating costs are spent year round locally; yard fees, marina fees, labour, chandlery, spares . . .
(6) Notional profits are taxed locally

Apart from those points, you're right. Everybody should go away, and leave me completely at peace in my chosen port.

Sadly, if so, the port facilities would then shut down. That would take us back 1965 or so . . . bliss.
 
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sailaboutvic said:
Vonasi I don't think you will fine any one more anti charter boat them me , really I ashamed of my views as for many years I skipper bare boat charters and earn well out of it , but as a private boat owner , there have given me more problems over the years then the worst of weather conditions you can imagine , but I can't agree with your view regarding Live aboard spend more in eating out then the charter yacht , I would say true liveabourd ( people who spend 52 weeks on there boat not the once that come out for a few months ) spend very little in eating out , we eat out two or three times a months the most four times and that rare , and most of the other we know do the same , two reasons 1 because a lot of the time we come away very disappointed in the food as well as it being over priced and I am the less fussy guy when it comes to food and 2 we enjoying eating on board inviting friend over new and old . Ok there is a third reason most of us are on a budget .


www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com
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jimbaerselman said:
(1) Charter boats aim for 20 weeks occupancy a year. Some manage 24. Those filled less than 15 weeks a year are likely to be pulled out of the market
(2) Boat occupancy is 4 to 6, proportional to length, with a few 2 aboard.
(3) Per day spending by one holidaymaker is two or three times the spending by a small boat (under 12m) live-aboard occupant.
(4) The cost of operating the boats is at least double that of operating a live-aboard, since they spend 6 days a week going from port to port.
(5) Operating costs are spent year round locally; yard fees, marina fees, labour, chandlery, spares . . .
(6) Notional profits are taxed locally

Apart from those points, you're right. Everybody should go away, and leave me completely at peace in my chosen port.

Sadly, if so, the port facilities would then shut down. That would take us back 1965 or so . . . bliss.
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Agree with both of those. From my own experience as a charterer of boats in the area and living on my own boat I spent probably more than 4 times as much per week when chartering compared to living aboard. You are on holiday and so come with money and want to enjoy yourself. Maybe breakfast at the taverna in the morning, then beer and ice cream when you get in during the afternoon. Then a few more drinks and a riddiculously large taverna meal in the evening.
Do not get me wrong we liked eating ashore when we lived on our own boat, but it was perhaps twice a week instead of 7-14 times (variation of breakfasts, lunches and evening meals) and it was in the better value and dare I say it better quality places that you get to hear about as you spend time in the area. We also ate less as we were full time and not in holiday mood.
As to spending on the boat, that was also reduced as we did most things ourselves (by ourselves I would include other liveaboard friends)
 
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I'm speaking with the benefit of having set up a charter company which eventually owned well over 100 boats. From your responses, I guess you haven't been in the business.

Vonasi said:
1. Charter companies aim for 20 weeks occupancy but anyone who is around the Ionian in May or October will tell you that most of the charter boats are still stuck at base. So it is unlikely that they achieve anywhere near this.
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There are always new entrants to the business, and those dropping out. They have low occupancy. Those that make 20 weeks a year make a good profit, and either re-invest to grow, or put a lot more effort (= money) providing a very high quality of maintenance to keep customer satisfaction high.

2. So let's say the average is 4 people on board and they eat lunch and breakfast on board and eat in a taverna for 6 of the 7 nights. Even at 25 Euro a head per meal out that is 600 Euro a week. Multiply this by say your never achieved 20 weeks occupancy then that is 12000 Euro. Most 52 week a year liveaboards spend far more than that.

3. Per day spending might be higher but they are not here for many days. A proportion are children so that reduces the spend even further.
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Charterers may fill boats for only 20 weeks a year, but they fill the boats with twice as many occupants. You only considered the daily spend per person of cash on food/gifts, (about double a live-aboard's), but omitted payments made by the tour operator on their behalf (airport fees, transfers to resort, staff and support boats for their period of charter) which are about the same amount again. On a per boat per year basis, that's at least 3 times as much income as a live aboard provides.

4. The cost of maintaining a charter boat is less than a liveaboard. It may work hard for few weeks but a liveaboards is being worn out 24/7 52 weeks a year.
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A charter boat will average a port entry and exit every day for 20 weeks; 140 trips a year, being handled by half the time by relatively inexperienced crews. Sails are torn, bogs are blocked, batteries flattened, hull scrape hulls and quays. Do live-aboards really use a boat that much over a year? I certainly didn't.
A liveaboard is more likely to spend more doing a proper job whereas charter companies do just enough to get by as otherwise it hits the bottom line and anyway the boat will be sold off to some pour individual in a few years time. Charter companies also have the power to negotiate discounts so spend less.
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If charter boats "do just enough to get by" they will lose repeat business; that will (in time) put them out of business. Also, the biggest element of maintenance is the labour cost; live-abords do their own. Charterers pay for labour - either their own employees (who spend on site) , or local labour.
5. Most charter companies (particularly the big ones) that I observe seem to pull the boats out in autumn and not touch them all winter - then in the spring they fly in a bunch of kids from the UK to paint the bottoms and clean them and chuck them back in. Not much going to the local economy if the bottoms aren't even painted by locals.
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Again, the long lasting companies are those which have winter re-fit programs; run by staff, or ex-staff who have set up independent businesses in the area. Sailmakers, stainless steel fabricators, diesel mechanics, riggers - the majority in the Levkas area arrived with flotilla companies. You only notice "the kids" - and forget that they, too, are paid, and pay their living expenses locally.
Some of the Levkas based charter companies don't even pay winter storage fees - many boats are left on free quays for the winter.
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Somebody who is locally resident with just 4 or 5 boats, maybe.
 
Vonasi said:
Anything that deters someone from wanting to run a charter fleet seems like a good idea to me. Too many damned charter boats here already.

I've never understood why charterers pay lower port fees than people who own their own boat. What a flawed tax collection business model that is? Charterers have loads of cash to throw around and will go on the town quay to be in the heart of the action no matter what is charged. The cost divided between the high number of people on board is hardly noticed by each individual. The Greek government is missing out on a lot of revenue with this poorly thought out decision. Charge charterers the same as boat owners and maybe they wouldn't need to to introduce the ridiculous new boat tax.
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Whilst I do agree with your sentiment, when we charter there are just the two of us so the cost would be the same.
 
Vonasi said:
Ah - so you are saying that his opinion is not to be trusted and is biased due to spending too much time on the dark side?
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What I am saying is , in plain English , Jim is one of the fifty percent of people on these site who don't talk out of his back side , that not to say he is always right , we had our moments , but the guy has run a well run charter company for many years and you don't do that unless you know your business . would you not agree working for a charter company and owning and running one is a very different kettle of fish .

I not sure how we come from mystery tax in Corfu to where we are now , and I not sure this posting is going any further forwards , within the first few posting we come to the conclusion that the tax Steve was ask for was for re entry in the country and as he didn't leave in the first place he was not liable to pay it , any one who know Greece and the way the Greece PP work , know very well most of then haven't got a clue and if you stand up to them most of the time they will back down , my guess over the years as been because they them self are not sure what the law is , what other country is there where a PP say you have to pay ???? And them not enforce the charge .
maybe it time this posting is put to bed , what you say guys .

www.bluewwatersailorcroatia.webs.com
 
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