Murray winches

[spark]

Does anyone have any experience of these?

They are bronze have handles below the drum, which I assume are used with a reciprocating action.

I think they are made in New Zealand - any Kiwi's out there with any opinions?

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[Peterduck]

While i have not used them personally, I understand that they are definitely a superior winch. I would certainly prefer a bottom-action winch to a top-action any day. As my ketch has no winches at all [save an anchor winch], it is an academic exercise for me.
Peter.

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[MainlySteam]

Spark, what do you need to know - want some, or spares, how they work? Although I have seen them on other boats, I cannot answer directly as I have never looked closely at them. However, I have a friend who has just recently taken 2 smallish ones off his boat (have not looked that closely at them but sound like the same winch, bronze, bottom handle).

Unfortunately he is in the army and is away until the end of next week then a week later is off to spend the winter in Afganistan but I expect to see him before he goes. If you arm me with a wish list of queries I will follow up with him. There is also an older designer around here, of more traditional vessels, but no longer working as far as I know, who I think I can track down and he may be helpful.

John

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[chippie]

I have a couple in a locker on my boat and have never fitted them. As stated they have a bottom handle but work on a ratchet and leverage basis. ie no reduction gears, at least the ones I have used have been like that. They have a cleat arrangement on top which can come in quite handy to avoid tailing when small adjustments are being made. They look quite good on a more traditional vessel but , in my opinion, are outclassed by a good self tailer. Fairly basic construction and seem bulletproof like most winches .

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[spark]

Thanks fo the offer of help.

I want to know if they are going to:

skin my knuckles on the deck
need inordinate amounts of maintenance
annoy me because the reciprocating action is too slow (compared to a top winding winch)
cost a fortune in handles because the catch that holds the handle in is unreliable
take riding turns when I put more than two yurns on the drum

I'd also like to know why your pal has removed them from his boat (if not for any of the above)

If I don't get any adverse reports then I am in the market for a pair of the small ones, preferably those with the cleats on top.



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[spark]

I need a couple of small winches for the sheets/camber lines on the rig that I'm building - self-tailers would be too big (and expensive) for the job.

The loads will be relatively light except for the last few turns, which would seem to work well with the reciprocating lever (I'm assuming the drum will spin freely when pulling in the sheet under lighter loads?)

I'm attracted to the idea of being able to easily take the rope on and off the drum without removing the handle. How positive is the handle locking mechanism?


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[Evadne]

Not Murrays, but my boat has had bottom action genoa sheet winches from new. (Tufnol bodied Lewmars). Easy to use except if my wife is trying to wind in the last few turns on a beat, and I really should have changed the genoa for the jib, when I have to lend a hand by pulling on the tail of the sheet.
I did service them once, donkeys years ago, but they didn't really need it. I think the design has less to go wrong with it than a modern top-action winch. The handle on the Lewmar is held in by a split pin, and being 1/2" bar doubles as an emergency bilge pump handle if needed. Judging from the other posts the Lewmar sounds like a downmarket copy of the bronze Murray.

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[Mirelle]

I have a pair

They are sold in this country by Classic Marine.

I have a medium sized pair which handle one pair of headsail sheets on a 37ft gaff cutter. They are quite adequate for that purpose.

There are advantages and drawbacks.

Advantages:

They are mechanically very simple.

They can have the direction of rotation reversed by swapping the pawls over so you can have a handed pair.

They are strong.

The cleat on the top works very well.

Disadvantages:

The handle retention is by way of a spring loaded push button, which is a weak point in the system - it breaks and is hard to mend

It is not really possible to haul in hand over hand over the drum with the handles in place, and you need a means of stopping the handle rotating through 360 degrees.

On the whole, I am quite pleased with them, but I am annoyed at the weakness of the handle retention system.

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[Mirelle]

Skinned knuckles - not if the winch is mounted on the cockpit coaming as per usual.

Inordinate maintenance - no.

Speed - same as equivalent top action winch

Handle catch unreliable - yes, certainly in the size I have - designs differ acording to model. Look carefully before buying.

Riding turns - like any winch, primarily a matter of the sheet lead to the winch - yes you can get riding turns on them.



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[MainlySteam]

Fine Spark. I will sound him out when I see him and respond to you... as I say it will be a week or more until he gets back.

In the meantime, I could safely say that they probably don't need much maintenance as I knew the previous owner of the boat also and he was not inclined to do much of that at all!

My friend, the new owner of the boat replaced them with small Lewmars (I think), about 14 or 16 size from memory, but can't remember if self tailing. He is a very competent sailor so we can assume he had good reasons for making the change. He is refitting the boat to repeat a previous voyage of his to Chile (which is through the roaring 40's from here, as close to the ice that you dare, on the great circle route), so we could probably add he was not that confident in the old winches.

They were mounted on the front edge of the after deckhouse (centre cockpit) and I would assume that the handles would have extended out over the open space so knuckle skinning was not a problem. From what I remember of them, such an arrangement would be necessary.

John

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[spark]

Re: I have a pair

Mirelle,

Can you clarify this one please:

"It is not really possible to haul in hand over hand over the drum with the handles in place, and you need a means of stopping the handle rotating through 360 degrees."

Do you mean that with (e.g.) a single turn on the winch you can't haul in on the line (i.e. spinning the drum) without removing the handle? Does this mean that, in this case, the handle rotates?

Many thanks to all who have responded.

Malcolm


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[Mirelle]

Re: I have a pair

There is of course a pawl ring, so the handle does not need to move when the drum does, but since these are fairly simple and robust winches there is a measure of frictional drag in the system, and in practice hauling in fast by hand with one or two turns on the drum, spinning the drum, will tend to spin the handle as well - the snag with this is that the handle is likely to get foul in the sheet being hauled in.

A simple, wholly effective, but crude-looking, solution is to have a length of shock cord tied through the hole in the outer end of the handle and belayed somewhere suitable near the winch, but (for preference) aft of it, so that the handle can be left in the winch and rotated through an arc of say 150 degrees, which is more than enough. The handle cannot now disappear overboard when the spring button gives up nor can it foul the sheet.

I think, on balance, these small inconveniences are more than outweighed by the ability to throw a line over the drum and haul it in by hand, throw more turns on and crank, belaying on the top cleat when almost home so as to use both hands, without trying to fit a top action wich handle in place!

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[spark]

Re: I have a pair

I understand and agree that a solution can be found.

Where I plan to mount the winches it may be possible to let the handles rotate aft and stop against the toerail, when hauling in the line. As for the handle locking mechanism I daresay I could modify it to make the handles more positively attached.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I might give them a try. If you know of anyone who has a pair of the small ones for sale let me know.

Thanks again.

Malcolm

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[MainlySteam]

Malcolm, I was able to speak to my friend today, he got back earlier than I thought. I'll put my response here, rather than PM it in case his comments have wider interest. Again, I clarify the person is a very experienced sailor, not a casual one (the navy even borrow him to skipper their yachts).

Firstly, the winches I said he fitted, he clarified it was the previous owner who did that (he died about 6 months ago and I knew the boat well under that owner too, so my recollection was bad) - they were for the running backstays. Why he used Lewmars (they are not self tailing ones), instead of Murray I do not know, but possibly the Murrays were just a fraction small.

He likes the Murray winches alot and there are still a couple on the boat as halyard winches. He said he had Murrays on his previous boat also and had actually bought 2 to fit to it. So his comments extend back over his experience with them on that boat and I got the impression he would be happy to use them again.

Maintenance wise he has had no problems with them on this boat or the previous - he said all there is in them is two pawls and their springs and they are dead easy to dismantle and maintain. I repeated the question about the reliability of the spring in the handle retainer with him and had a look myself. On the ones he has the handle has a spring loaded ball in it at the end you insert into the winch - to release the handle there is a hole where you can access the little ball and push it in as you pull the handle out. He has had no problem with the locking balls and springs but made the point he always keeps them well lubricated. From a quick look I could not see how one could get access to the spring to replace it if it ever failed - he had never worried as he has a number of spare handles.

He said that they need to be mounted on pedastals if one does not want damaged knuckles - of course on a mast that is pretty much standard anyway.

His are the ones with the top cleats, I understand they come with or without.

As best I could understand it the power ratio comes only from the length of the handle. The drive is 1:1 (and that fits in with what a listing in a boat fitting catalogue I found I had). So, say, 20 degrees on the ratchet handle turns the drum 20 degrees. Also, the largest winch I can see listed is quite small, so I would imagine would not be appropriate for headsails (which I think is a problem you do not face) except on very small vessels. The boat he has now is around 36 ft (about 40 ft overall as it is a bowspritted cutter) but has these winches only for the halyards. His previous boat was 30 foot (a cutter also as best I remember).

I had a quick look this evening for a Murray internet site, but could not find one. I see there are several sellers of them in UK with internet sites so probably no problem. If you wish to persevere with these winches but have any problem seeing what the range is, try the catalogue at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boatshop.co.nz>http://www.boatshop.co.nz</A> - my friend said that the prices from that supplier are not competitive, however.

If you wish to track down the manufacturer to ask him questions, PM me and I will do a search here in NZ for you. A little history; I think they used to be Murray-Clevco (or other way around) and I actually have a couple of ss blocks in a box which must be 20-30 years old made by Clevco. Until it came up on this forum, I had thought they had long ago disappeared into obscurity- apparently not!

John



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[Mirelle]

Re: I have a pair

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/

Yes, your solution will work well, I think. The cleat on the top is a neat idea and allows a reasonable amount of graunching in after belaying - don't overdo it though, or a riding turn will inevitably result.

The handle securing problem only occurs on the size I have which is the medioum size. On the smaller sizes it is not an issue as the handles have a different locking mechanism.

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[spark]

They sound like the right thing for the job. Many thanks for your efforts - it makes buying 'blind' much less of a gamble.

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[spark]

Re: I have a pair

Decision made. I'll have a dig around for the best price. Thanks again.

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