MS4 Gearbox - Delay in engaging Forwards when warm

[Dazzajohm]

I don’t seem to have much luck with boats... think I need to find another hobby...

Anyway, I’ve got twin TAMD41B’s with the MS4 gearbox. One side is fine, but a problem has developed on the stbd side where there is a delay when forwards is selected.

Was fine last season, but took boat for a run the other day, first time out the marina in a good few months and when I returned and was manoeuvring back in to my berth, there is a delay of 3 or 4 seconds when forwards is selected.

Had another look today as the boat has just been serviced over the past couple of days including gearbox oil change. Upon start up no problems engaging from cold but then after a run and everything is warm same as before with 3 or 4 second delay when forwards is engaged.

When I say a delay, when I watch the Shaft when forwards is engaged it does start to turn very slowly but it’s not noticeable for a few seconds.

I’ve had the cable disconnected from the lever on the gearbox and put it in gear by hand and the same thing happens so I know it’s not the cable.

Any ideas? Seems really strange that it seems to be without problem when cold and only evident when warm.

TIA

 

[vas]

don't know this box, but having changed oil could it be that wrong type of oil is used and once hot viscosity is wrong and takes time to up the pressure on the plates and engage?
is there any pickup point to fit a temp oil pressure gauge and see what it does and compare to the other side?
Did you change oil on both boxes?
checked the tiny mesh filters?

these the "cheap" options and first actions I'd do...

V.

 

[Dazzajohm]

don't know this box, but having changed oil could it be that wrong type of oil is used and once hot viscosity is wrong and takes time to up the pressure on the plates and engage?
is there any pickup point to fit a temp oil pressure gauge and see what it does and compare to the other side?
Did you change oil on both boxes?
checked the tiny mesh filters?

these the "cheap" options and first actions I'd do...

V.

Cheers for the reply.

The problem was there last weekend before the oil was changed. I know the right gearbox oil was used too as they asked me what the manual says and I just gave them the details from there. Not sure about being able to fit an oil temp gauge but will certainly mention it to the engineers. Oil was changed on both boxes and regarding the filters I don’t know whether the engineers did... I didn’t realise they had them so didn’t ask ��

 

[vas]

oops temporary oil pressure gauge, not a temperature gauge, sorry!
filter is a tiny mesh thing in there somewhere I believe useful to check for debris and tiny metal shavings/pieces which would denote some serious issue with the box.

If you want to have a read in my story with a similar (but more serious issue) on my port gbox check this:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ngaging-failure-low-hours&highlight=twin+disk

cheers

V.

 

[volvopaul]

oops temporary oil pressure gauge, not a temperature gauge, sorry!
filter is a tiny mesh thing in there somewhere I believe useful to check for debris and tiny metal shavings/pieces which would denote some serious issue with the box.

If you want to have a read in my story with a similar (but more serious issue) on my port gbox check this:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ngaging-failure-low-hours&highlight=twin+disk

cheers

V.

Good advise for a hydraulic gearbox but of no use on the MS4 .

Mechanical shift box has a cone clutch, no oil pressure required or filters to swap or clean .

Slipping cone requires replacing .

 

[Dazzajohm]

Good advise for a hydraulic gearbox but of no use on the MS4 .

Mechanical shift box has a cone clutch, no oil pressure required or filters to swap or clean .

Slipping cone requires replacing .

I did wonder about the cone clutch. I’m guessing this is the likely culprit even though it goes in reverse OK?

I can probably learn to live with this for the time being, but I’m guessing if it’s the cone it’s only going to get worse over time?

 

[scottie]

As Vas says he is not familiar with these boxes and whilst his advise is generically sound is more suited to larger hydraulic boxes.
A pm to VOLVO PAUL is worthwhile at this moment but I would suggest worn cone or selected in the box is more likely to be your problem

Ps don’t try to eat your dinner whilst posting or you get lakesailored

 

[vas]

Good advise for a hydraulic gearbox but of no use on the MS4 .

Mechanical shift box has a cone clutch, no oil pressure required or filters to swap or clean .

Slipping cone requires replacing .

apologies but having suffered greatly with my gbox issue back then I try to help if (I think) I can

cheers

V.

 

[MrB]

As Vas says he is not familiar with these boxes and whilst his advise is generically sound is more suited to larger hydraulic boxes.
A pm to VOLVO PAUL is worthwhile at this moment but I would suggest worn cone or selected in the box is more likely to be your problem

Ps don’t try to eat your dinner whilst posting or you get lakesailored

PMSL.:encouragement:

I checked the rules and under Part B Rule 4-B (Rev.1) it was indeed a "Lakesailor"

b) “Lakesailoring” rules apply from the moment a second (different) person gives the essentially same answer as an earlier answer in the same thread. With a second similar or identical answer in the thread, the second chronological answer is “a lakesailor”, and that poster is “lakesailoring” the first responder with the same answer. The first responder is “being lakesailored” by the second (and subsequent) responders with that same answer.

 

[oldgit]

if its any consolation, this gearbox is a light weight compared to other boxes, a keen chap with a basic socket set can get the thing out within an hour if you want to do things in hurry and on budget.
Problem will be to find somebody prepared to work on it and who knows what they are doing..A stoneage piece of kit.
Marine hydraulic gearbox repair outfits appear reluctant to work on MS4 in our area.

 

[Dazzajohm]

if its any consolation, this gearbox is a light weight compared to other boxes, a keen chap with a basic socket set can get the thing out within an hour if you want to do things in hurry and on budget.
Problem will be to find somebody prepared to work on it and who knows what they are doing..A stoneage piece of kit.
Marine hydraulic gearbox repair outfits appear reluctant to work on MS4 in our area.

I did do a lot of research before I bought the boat and was aware these gearboxes can be an issue and that getting them repaired could be problematic, so this is kind of a worst fear coming true. I had them checked as part of the survey and no issues were found so I guess not much else I could have done.

I’ve just spent the equivalent of a small car over the past few months getting bits and pieces sorted so this is really unwelcome. I was thinking of trying to save a bit of money and remove the gearbox myself as doesn’t look too complicated and it’s easily accessible but after a few hours on google haven’t managed to find a manual or instructions or anything.

The engineers seem to think that MIT in Queenborough should be able to fix it, but until they speak to them I guess we won’t know for sure.

 

[Dazzajohm]

Just heard back from the engineers, and they’re telling me that due to the type of stern seal I have, the boats going to have to come back out the water for removal of the gearbox, so I think I’m just going to try live with it for the moment ?

 

[BruceK]

gutted for you. That's bad news on top of your past woes. As for spending an equivalent of a small car on your boat annually, join the club. I personally cant think of anything I havent replaced except the bare engine blocks and hull.

 

[oldgit]

Just heard back from the engineers, and they’re telling me that due to the type of stern seal I have, the boats going to have to come back out the water for removal of the gearbox, so I think I’m just going to try live with it for the moment 

What stern seal have you got ? ??????
Cannot think of any stern gland which would warrant a lift out if shaft left in situ.
Just remove box and leave shaft, should not even need supporting or anything.
Plain old 1.5" shaft and only about 12" poking out.
Corniche should be bog standard stern gland sleeve compressed by a couple of nuts unless previous owner has put something exotic in there.

Have a look here for stern gland types
http://coxeng.co.uk/stern-gear/stern-glands/

 

[Dazzajohm]

gutted for you. That's bad news on top of your past woes. As for spending an equivalent of a small car on your boat annually, join the club. I personally cant think of anything I havent replaced except the bare engine blocks and hull.

Yes, I don’t seem to have much luck when it comes to boats. It’s getting to the stage where the stress and anxiety is outweighing the fun so maybe time to re-think!

 

[Dazzajohm]

What stern seal have you got ? ??????
Cannot think of any stern gland which would warrant a lift out if shaft left in situ.
Just remove box and leave shaft, should not even need supporting or anything.
Plain old 1.5" shaft and only about 12" poking out.

To be honest, I really don’t know, but I’m heading down there shortly just to give it another run so I’ll take some pictures and share later on. I must admit, looking at it I’m not sure why it can’t just be disconnected...

 

[oldgit]

Still suspect its bog standard gland fitted to just about everything that came out of Prinline factory of that era.
Remove box when and as needed.

Took my box to a local car gearbox shop, 20 mins to pull my box to bits..........Broken shaft.
24 hours to get bits from Sweden.
Parts shipped from Keyparts day after, put back together in morning and fitted back in boat that evening.
Left on weeks holiday to Thames following morning.

 

[Dazzajohm]

What stern seal have you got ? ??????
Cannot think of any stern gland which would warrant a lift out if shaft left in situ.
Just remove box and leave shaft, should not even need supporting or anything.
Plain old 1.5" shaft and only about 12" poking out.
Corniche should be bog standard stern gland sleeve compressed by a couple of nuts unless previous owner has put something exotic in there.

Have a look here for stern gland types
http://coxeng.co.uk/stern-gear/stern-glands/

I hope these pictures answer your questions ��

 

[oldgit]

Looks like somebody has spent some serious money on deep sea seals and they look fairly new.
Unless somebody knows otherwise( might be worth posting to VY Cox) doubt there is any good reason you cannot remove box while boat is in water .
T Norris are a supplier of these seals worth a quick call to get there opinion.
https://shop.tnorrismarine.co.uk/collections/deep-sea-seals

Unless somebody knows otherwise of course. ?.

 

[vas]

not familiar with deep sea seals so don't know if you're allowed to push the shaft back as far as it can (by the looks of it less that 50mm in this case)
only concern would be that there's not enough room to push the shaft back to remove the box off the spindle on the crank of the engine. However removing the elastic bush (the yellowish thing between the green and the red) you may have enough space to disconnect the box from the engine (again assuming you can push the shaft back and not flood the boat!)

cheers

V.